Soccer Dad

If demands are made only of Israel and the country is told to take it or leave it, Obama's peace vision will face the fate of the Rogers plan. On the other hand, if it discuss how the Arabs must change for peace to happens and presents a map, not a specific list of things for the parties to do, perhaps it will get somewhere. There must be real give and take. Its not the Islamic mentality to compromise. I have low expectations that anything will be achievable in the Middle East - Islamists and radicals in the region will see to it that no peace talks ever happen between Israel and its neighbors. But it will still be interesting to see the kind of future Obama wants to see for that part of the world.

How foolish can anyone be to say the Arabs have not compromised. Israel's very recognition to have a right to exist comes from arab compromise. Lets not forget that Israel according to its own figures destroyed over 476 Palestinian villages and forcefully expelled, (genocide if it was committed by a muslim), over 70% of the Palestinian population and condemned them to a life of death, hunger and disease in refugee camps. The palestinians are willing to allow Israel to keep 78% of Historic Palestine which Palestinians have lived on for thousands of uninterrupted years to European, arab, and american jewish immigrants who dont even know who was burried in their back yard.
The arabs have obviously given allot. What must not happen is to ask them to give more because international is clear and states that "the conquest of land by military means is illegal", but that is how israel conquered all its land and if it is illegal when iraq invaded kuwait and kuwait was a property of iraq's 30 years prior, than it's definitely illegal for jewish immigrants to ethnically cleanse the arabs off their lands to create a state of their own.

Ron

How foolish of anyone to say Arabs have compromised. How much compromise have they made when they want to wipe Israel off the map? How is that recognizing Israel's right to exist? Egypat and Jordan have recognised Israel's right to exist, but that certainly doesn't reflect the "Arab street."

because international is clear and states that "the conquest of land by military means is illegal"

Bullsh**. It is not illegal when it is taken in a DEFENSIVE war against annihilation. Especially on the third attempt at such annihilation.

What will it take for the Arabs to recognize that Israel is not going ANYWHERE. All they keep doing is continue to prolong their self-inflicted agony.

how can you call what israel is giving up a concession. israel is negoiating with land it legally doesn't own. the whole muslim word, 56 countries, has recently stated that they will recognise israel if it abides by international law and accepts the land for peace offer.the arab countries have bent over backwards to make a 'just' peace . if israel doesn't accept it and obamas peace inititive is a fizzer, then the chances of a major war is unavoidable with both jews and non jews suffering. the only guy who will be laughing is osama bin laden who will come out stronger than ever with many more arabs radicalising and joining his cause.

hamas and hizbullah are home grown organisation. they were created as resistance groups to isreali occupation. if they were proxies of iran they wouldn't have the majority support of the people. all iran does is support these groups.at the moment israel is propping up fatah, does that make fatah a proxy of israel.

In the first place, 80% of historic Palestine is already under Arab control. Are you forgetting about Jordan? Secondly it is the Jews who have lived uninterrupted for 3000 years. And thirdly there are hardly any American born Jewish immigrants to Israel. Half of Israeli Jews are native to the Middle East, having been driven out of Arab countries. Jews are not colonial occupiers and invaders but in fact ARE the indigenous people of Israel. Get your facts and history straight, ron.

hamas and hizbullah are indeed Iranian proxies, as is widely acknowledged and hezbollah has expanded its presence in Latin America. So at least in the case of hezbollah, it has a global reach. It is widely acknowledged that Iran funds, smuggles arms to and trains hamas and hezbollah. What world are you living in sass?

Ron,

"Israel's very recognition to have a right to exist comes from arab compromise."

Which Arab countries currently recognize Israel's right to exist--besides Egypt and Jordan which both have come out with blatant Anti-Semitic material in the media?

"Lets not forget that Israel according to its own figures destroyed over 476 Palestinian villages and forcefully expelled, (genocide if it was committed by a muslim), over 70% of the Palestinian population and condemned them to a life of death, hunger and disease in refugee camps."

Which figures are these? If they really exist, please provide a link.

"The palestinians are willing to allow Israel to keep 78% of Historic Palestine which Palestinians have lived on for thousands of uninterrupted years... "

'Thousands' implies at least 2,000--2 problems.
1. 2,000 years ago the land you are talking about was a Jewish state. Actually, no other sovereign country has ever existed on that land.

2. The name "Palestine" itself is less than 2000 years old. Besides, why would the country have a name given it by the Romans and not an Arabic name reflecting the sovereign Arab country that you claim existed there?

the claim by the european zionist that they are the decendants of the anicient hebrew people is a myth. can the christians claim they are the decendants of the original christians ,who were jewish, and also claim the holy lands as theirs. judism is a religion not a ethnicity. the only thing in common between the first zionist and the ancient hebrew people was they believed in the same religion.
as the king -cane commission of 1919 stated: 'the inital claim, often submitted by zionist representatives, that they have a right to palestine based on an occupation of 2000 years ago, can hardly be considered. an overwhelming majority of the 24000 palestinian jews in residence were, in fact, strongly opposed to the creation of a jewish state on arab land.'
in 1920, during a debate on palestine in the british house of lords, and echoing the view of many befoe and since, lord sydenham said:' i sympathize entirely with the wishes of the jews to have a national home, but i say this national home must not be given if it cannot be given without entailing gross injustice upon another people. palestine is not the original home of the jews. it was acquired by them after conquest,and they have never occupied the whole of it,which they openly demand. they have no more valid claim to palestine than the decendants of the ancient romans have to this country[england].'
in the 1880s the jews owned less than 1% of the land. by the 1940s, with jewish immigration and land buying, this grew to under 6%. how was palestine ever going to become a sovereign jewish state with only 6% of the land, without ethnic cleansing the owners out. what is happening today in israel is colonialism in a post colonial age.

the claim by the european zionist that they are the decendants of the anicient hebrew people is a myth.

You keep claiming this. Where did you get this idea? Arthur Koestler? I think I have asked you this before.

so using your logic laura, at the moment israel and USA are arming and supporting fatah ,thus making them a proxy of israel/USA. the USA supports israel, does that make israel the proxy of USA. but sometimes i think that the US has become a maxi state of israel.
just because iran supports hamas and hizzbullah doesn't make them proxies of iran. they are both nationalistic homegrown organisation that were created to end israeli occupation and to aliviate the suffering of the people.it was israeli policy which created these groups not iranian influence.
before the USA illegally invaded iraq we all heard the propoganda that saddam hussien sponsered al queda and had WMD. then we find out there are no WMD or any links to al queda or 9/11 . al queda and the taliban grew stronger as a direct result from americas occupation of iraq. now the same is being done to iran to gather support to bomb that country. its all propoganda for the 'new world order' and the 'americian empire' which will dominate the world .

just because iran supports hamas and hizzbullah doesn't make them proxies of iran

Ever see the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps emblem?

http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=49533

Now look at the Hizbullah flag:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_Hezbollah.svg

Notice something?

how was palestine ever going to become a sovereign jewish state with only 6% of the land, without ethnic cleansing the owners out

The partition plan gave the Jews a majority in the
land allotted to them. A significant part of that was the Negev desert.

AK47s are now a symbol of resistance in the third world countries and middle east. many resistance groups use it on their flags. it still doesn't prove they are proxies getting their orders from iran. the iranian revolution inspired the leaders of hezbollah who have alot in common and make natural allies. the lebanese people would not vote for hezbollah, which has a real chance of winning a election, unless it was a lebanese organisation.
during the 1980s the palestinian PLO according to propoganda were proxies of libiya, when Colonel Gaddafi was the so called sponser of terror. then it was syrias turn and when saddam invaded kuwait, iraqs turn. there is a pattern to this madness.its all propoganda to condition the west to accept bombing and/or invading the targeted country and making the world safe again. our leaders use fear to scare us into going to war even if the threat doesn't exist, iraq is a good example.

the partition plan didn't include forcing people to leave their homes. if the palestinians wanted to stay in the new state of israel they could or they could sell up and move to the soveriegn state of palestine approved by the UN, which never eventuated because of israel and arab land grabs. instead the jews started to forcefully cleanse the area and beyond of non jews at least six months before the partition date . the end result was over 800000 refugees stripped of their assests.

the iranian revolution inspired the leaders of hezbollah which have alot in common and make natural allies. hezbollah wouldn't have a chance in the upcoming election if it was a iranian proxy. the AK47 is now a smybol of resistance and revolution in the third world and just because they both have this symbol doesn't make one a proxy of the other. i remember in the 1980s the PLO was a proxy of lybia,then syria. also at the same time lybia sponsered world terror then it was syria. and when saddam invaded kuwait iraq became the sponsers of terrorism. now its iran turn. there is method to this madness. the west,esp USA, uses this method to condition its people that the targeted country is making the world unsafe and only by force can we make you safe again. iraqs WMD fiasco and its links to al queda and 9/11 is a recent example. now it iran turn with it WMD and its hezbollah and hamas proxies. can you see the pattern here-for its all propoganda to condition you for war.

the partition plan didn't include forcing people to leave their homes. if the palestinians wanted to stay in the new state of israel they could or they could sell up and move to the soveriegn state of palestine approved by the UN, which never eventuated because of israel and arab land grabs. instead the jews started to forcefully cleanse the area and beyond of non jews at least six months before the partition date . the end result was over 800000 refugees stripped of their assests.

The Palestinians joined the other Arabs in rejecting the partition plan and war ensued.
Palestinian flight began about ten months before the partition date, when the Yishuv was still on the defensive.

the AK47 is now a smybol of resistance and revolution in the third world and just because they both have this symbol doesn't make one a proxy of the other

They way it is held up by an arm, the globe, the drawing style--it seems to be meant to assert some sort of joint identity. What's the exact definition of a proxy? And you didn't reply to my question about your repeated assertion that Ashkenazi Jews are not descended from the Jews of ancient times.

just because they both have this symbol doesn't make one a proxy of the other

The latest Fareed Zakaria screed about how Iran doesn't really want the bomb refers to Hizbullah as "proxies" of Iran. That should be definitive for you.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/199147

no, it is not definitive.
all that emblem and flag proves ,one inspired the other. it is a homegrown organisation which was created on the iranian model. do you think it could ever have entered the political system of lebanon if it was a proxy. do you think the shiites of lebanon want to be ruled by iran. hezbollah wouldn't have the support of the people if iran was calling the shots.

the idea the the european jews are the decendants of the anicent hebrew people is a myth. since the first christians were ancient hebrew jews can they claim to be the decendants of the anicent hebrew people. the only connection between the the two is they share the same religion. can the ethiopean jew claim to be the decendants too. or what about the chinese girl down the street who converted to judasm so as to marry ,can she also lay claim.
"Strictly speaking it is incorrect to call an ancient Israelite a �Jew� or to call a contemporary Jew an Israelite or a Hebrew."
(1980 Jewish Almanac, p. 3).

since the first christians were ancient hebrew jews can they claim to be the decendants of the anicent hebrew people

What does that prove? Christianity abandoned its Jewish identity and greatly increased its members through mass-conversions. Judaism accepts some converts but that doesn't mean it hasn't stayed in existence as a community in which one generation largely consists of the children of the previous one. Kohanim and Levi'im even know what tribe they belong to. And why do you keep making this claim about European Jews?

do you think the shiites of lebanon want to be ruled by iran.

How would you prove that they are not? You don't seem to be able to argue the point.

http://www.missiontoisrael.org/it-matters.php

http://www.missiontoisrael.org/it-matters.php

Do you believe in Aryan Supremacy or something like that, sass?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Identity

how can you prove that they are proxies of iran.
if you haven't noticed it is a lebanese organisation representing lebanese shiites in a lebanese country with a lebanese leader who is joining the lebanese political structure. it sounds lebanese to me.

the whole muslim word, 56 countries, has recently stated that they will recognise israel if it abides by international law and accepts the land for peace offer.the arab countries have bent over backwards to make a 'just' peace .

Hahahaha, what is this, opposite day?

if you haven't noticed it is a lebanese organisation representing lebanese shiites in a lebanese country

And they eat Lebanese food and wear Lebanese shoes?

do you believe that iraq has WMD and was part responsible 9/11 .also do you believe that iran must bear some responsibility because after all some of the highjackers had to have travelled through that country.and finally do you believe that bombing /invading iran and replacing the mad mullas will help stop terrorism in the region, and groups such as hezbullah and hamas will just fade away.

Sass,

Why did you post a link to that Christian Identity site? Do you believe in that stuff? Did you expect us to be impressed by quotes from Benjamin Freedman? Do you know who he is? Do you think the quote from the Jewish Almanac is meant to deny that contemporary Jews are descended from the Jews of earlier times?

the reason is that it reminds me of the european zionist, full of myths and a need to rewrite history.

i don't need to quote any book to know that the european zionists are not the decendants of the ancient hebrew people., because it is a fact.

i don't need to quote any book to know that the european zionists are not the decendants of the ancient hebrew people., because it is a fact

If it was a fact, even you would be able to come up with some evidence for it. Thanks for the comic relief.

so the jews are a ethnicity.
really,i didn't know that.i always thought they were a religion.
why do the majority of europeans jews look like europeans ,arab jews look like arabs, russian jews look like russians and my favorite ethiopian jews look like africians.
what tribe did the ethioppian jew come from-the 13th.
its pure myth.

DNA testing has proven that Ashkenazi Jews are indeed descendants of the ancient Hebrews. http://www.amazon.com/DNA-Tradition-Genetic-Ancient-Hebrews/dp/1932687130

"Since the Jews first settled in Europe more than 50 generations ago, the intermarriage rate was estimated to be only about 0.5%... Ashkenazi Jews are still closer genetically to Sephardic and Kurdish Jews than to any other population."

a million new jews from russia migrated to israel when the soviet union collasped. israel went shooping for citizen because of the time bomb when the arabs[who breed like rabbits] would out number the jews. so israel acquired a million new jews-praise be to god. of coarse it required a few adjustments, for one, they were wooed to the sacred homeland with loot and plenty of it,but whats a few billion between friends. then too, a lot of them weren't exactly jewish, but what the hell ,if they could mention how their grandfathers said one day, that his mother used to be jewish before the commies and all that russian stuff, it all o.k.. just more jews returning to the home of their forefathers.

so the jews are a ethnicity.
really,i didn't know that.i always thought they were a religion

You are picturing a society like modern-day America where a population can be religiously diverse and ethnically uniform at the same time. Jews have only intermarried in a limited way in most places and times, they have spoken their own languages such as Yiddish and Ladino, etc. There is nothing to stop a religiously-defined group from having characteristics we associate with ethnicity or nationality. The present-day Amish, I assume, are largely descended from previous generations. I don't know if they are exactly analogous to the Jews, but you ought to be getting the idea by now.

the ehnic connection beyween 19th century jewry and the anicient hebrew people is a pure myth. but since your in the business of propoganda ,its understandable that you believe what you do.

the ehnic connection beyween 19th century jewry and the anicient hebrew people is a pure myth

This is getting boring. Reasonable people generally assume that 19th century Jewry largely descended from 18th century Jewry (with a few converts added in) and that 18th century Jewry descended from 17th century Jewry, and on and on back until the times the Jewish people originated. To argue otherwise for Ashkenazi Jews, you need some other origin besides the only origin that normal history knows about. Arthur Koestler thought that maybe the conversion of the Khazars would fit the bill. There is a great deal of evidence against this theory, and even worse, no evidence for it. That doesn't stop the people that run the sort of crackpot websites you favor from believing it, of course. Anyway, it seems unlikely that you will say anything further on this subject worth responding to.

Science is not propaganda. You can not dispute scientific fact. I told you that DNA evidence shows that there IS a connection to Ashkenazi Jews and the ancient Hebrews. To believe as you do is to argue against science.

straight from the dictionary: 'Ashkenazi Jews, also called Ashkenazim are Jews who are descendants of Jews from Germany, Poland, Austria and Eastern Europe.'

unlikely that you will say anything further on this subject worth responding to.

"'Ashkenazi Jews, also called Ashkenazim are Jews who are descendants of Jews from Germany, Poland, Austria and Eastern Europe.'" is not from the dictionary, it is from Wikipedia.

More importantly, the article in question--if you actually read it--contradicts sass.

Yes, I know--that is not a shock.

Just scroll down and read the section marked "Origins of Ashkenazim"--a cryptically named section that no doubt threw sass off completely.

See also the section "Background in the Roman Empire"; "Rabbinic Judaism moves to Ashkenaz"; and "DNA clues"

"straight from the dictionary: 'Ashkenazi Jews, also called Ashkenazim are Jews who are descendants of Jews from Germany, Poland, Austria and Eastern Europe.'"
.............................................
Where do you think the Jews of Germany, Poland, Austria and eastern Europe descended from?

The Jewish Encyclopedia:
"Khazars, a non-Semitic, Asiatic, Mongolian tribal nation who emigrated into Eastern Europe about the first century, who were converted as an entire nation to Judaism in the seventh century by the expanding Russian nation which absorbed the entire Khazar population, and who account for the presence in Eastern Europe of the great numbers of Yiddish-speaking Jews in Russia, Poland, Lithuania, Galatia, Besserabia and Rumania."