May 14, 2009

Two state confusion

Tony Karon writes this bit of inanity in his survey of President Obama's foreign policy challenges:

Unlike Netanyahu, Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas is fully committed to the two-state solution being championed by the Obama Administration. The problem, however, is that Abbas is plainly no longer representative of those on whose behalf he negotiates - and that means he has precious little ability to deliver on any promises he makes to the Israelis or Americans. His term of office formally expired in January, and that month's Israeli offensive in Gaza reduced his popularity to an all-time low. Were a new Palestinian election to be held today, it's doubtful that Abbas would even win the nomination of his own Fatah party, much less be able to beat a Hamas candidate at the polls. Hamas remains the majority party in the Palestinian legislature; it controls all of Gaza following a violent showdown in 2007 that saw Abbas' supporters ejected from power. Hamas may also be even more popular than Fatah in the Abbas-controlled West Bank, where free political activity is suppressed by Israeli and Palestinian security forces. (See pictures of Gaza after Israel's offensive)

Quite apart from the fact Abbas and Fatah don't accept the notion of Jewish state of Israel, do they even accept a two state solution?

The evidence says that they don't. Consider this op-ed by an adviser to the "moderate" Palestinian Prime Minister Salam Fayyad that claimed:

Israel had surpassed the Fascist and Nazi deeds of the era of Mussolini and Hitler and that it was perpetrating a new kind of holocaust against the Palestinians.

(h/t Backspin)

Or this interview with the PLO's ambassador to Lebanon:

With the two-state solution, in my opinion, Israel will collapse, because if they get out of Jerusalem, what will become of all the talk about the Promised Land and the Chosen People? what will become of all the sacrifices they made--just to be told to leave?

They consider Jerusalem to have a spiritual status. The Jews consider Judea and Samaria to be their historic dream. If the Jews leave those places, the Zionist idea will begin to collapse. It will regress of its own accord. Then we will move forward.

(h/t Elder of Ziyon)

Barry Rubin observes something about Sheikh Tamimi, whose tirade prompted the Pope to walk out.

It's a pity that the Palestinian Authority's (PA) chief Islamic judge Tayseer Rajab Tamimi will be criticized for rudeness rather than incitement to genocide. And the whole political context of Tamimi's statements shouldn't be missed either: he is an appointee of the PA. When he demands that Israel be wiped out either he's speaking for his bosses or if not they should fire him. Of course, they won't because in large part he is.

It's taken for granted among many "experts" that Abbas and Fatah accept a peaceful settlement with Israel. They don't. They seek to supplant Israel. They're just a bit more subtle about it than Hamas is, but it doesn't make them less hostile.

(Sometimes I wonder if the reason that so many believe that Fatah is moderate is because they have to believe that. If one doesn't believe that the problems in the Middle East are not soluble in the near term. And if peace isn't just around the corner, that's just too terrible for some people to believe. In that context, believing that Fatah is moderate and the only obstacle to peace in the MIddle East is Israel's failure to be reasonable is rather comforting.)

Crossposted on Yourish.

Posted by SoccerDad at May 14, 2009 6:30 AM
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Comments

Israel is being asked to be "comforting". A proposition with very little real substance behind it. There is no evidence the Arabs would moderate if like in the past, Israel continued to give. There are things Israel cannot and will not do even to achieve peace. That is why the two state solution is more of a slogan rather than an effort to pursue a serious peacemaking path in the Middle East.

Posted by: NormanF at May 14, 2009 11:02 AM

I think that they do indeed believe in a two state solution However, neither of the two states would be Israel. They want the two states to be Hamastan and Fatahland. Then the two states would go to war so that Hamastan can �unite� the two.

Posted by: Sabba Hillel at May 14, 2009 11:46 AM

I think your statement that people believe Fatah to be "moderate" so they can believe there is a solution is exactly right. Otherwise too many people would have to admit to wasting too much time and too many resources for nothing.

Arab-Israeli peace isn't any closer than it ever was and there's no reason to think it will be in the forseeable future. Scrapping the idiotic "peace process" and accepting the status quo while trying to minimize casualties makes far more sense, but who wants to be the first to oppose the "peace process" which too many associate with actual peace.

Posted by: zee at May 14, 2009 12:41 PM

You are as intelligent as hockey mum palin.

Posted by: Anwar at May 16, 2009 12:20 PM

Ok, that just crossed the line into being plain absurd. I've never seen someond create an article which clearly opposes their own position, then try to argue that it doesn't. Israel is pursuing a new brand of holocaust against the Palestinians. Zionism is inherently racist. Zionists are no less extremist, radical, or militant than advocates of Global Jihad. Why is it, do you think, that Hamas would probably beat Fatah at the polls? Why is it that they were democratically elected in Gaza? Why do the Palestinians, the Arabs, the Western media, and everyone but the Israelis and their sycophantic evangelical supporters who just might be more religion-crazy thane zionists or jihadists keep saying that Israel is a cruel and oppressive force which has no interest in peace or compromise and is determined to slowly exterminate the Palestinians? The whole world must just be vicious liars, right? Israel couldn't be responsible at all.... Israel is just a poor hapless, helpless victim which just happens to have the most powerful military in the region and be the only nuclear-armed Middle Eastern nation.... Does that really make sense to you??? Honestly??? I just don't understand how so many people can just keep ignoring the facts and repeating their own lies until they believe them. The Israeli apologists make about as much sense as the Christians in America who keep whining about how they are being persecuted despite being the vast and overwhelming majority. Zionists are just like Nazis, but with a new face: They are oppressive aggressors whose military is greatly superior to their neighbors and who rely on a massive propaganda machine to spread their lies and convince everyone that the root of all the world's problems is the evil Muslims who must be cleansed from their great nation.... Seriously, that's pretty messed up.

Posted by: construcivecritic at May 16, 2009 3:04 PM

"Israel is pursuing a new brand of holocaust against the Palestinians. Zionism is inherently racist. Zionists are no less extremist, radical, or militant than advocates of Global Jihad".
.............................................
Talk about being over the line. You really are one very sick SOB. Are the so-called "palestinians" being put into gas chambers? Tell me how their population has greatly increased if they have been the victims of genocide by Israel?

Look what's happening around the world. muslims are in conflict everywhere from the Mideast to Africa, India, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Europe, the Philipines, Thailand etc. Any normal rational person will come to the conclusion that yes the root of the world's problems are indeed coming from the evil muslims. It is not Jews and Israel who are waging global warfare. It is not Zionists who are perpetrating terrorism around the world.

It is one thing to have people post here who have an alternative opinion, but this "constructive critic" creature is a really sick bastard. We need to at least limit commenters to sane people. This guy is totally off the wall and his arguments are completely irrational and sound like the ravings of a mental patient.

Posted by: Laura at May 16, 2009 8:27 PM

"You really are one very sick SOB." - Uh, not really.

"Are the so-called "palestinians" being put into gas chambers?" - Were all 6 million Jews that were allegedly "ethnically cleansed" in WWII killed with gas chambers? There is more than one way to exterminate a people. For example, Sudan was accused of pursuing such by expelling NGOs without having the capacity to replace their aid distribution. Thus, acting to prevent humanitarian aid is considered to be unlawful. Would you deny that Israel acts to obstruct such aid from reaching the Palestinians? By refusing to allow the Palestinians in Gaza to rebuild their homes and infrastructure and refusing to let them leave Gaza, Israel is forcably keeping them in conditions where electricity and gas are often unavailable, proper sewage and clean drinking water are also frequently absent, and proper medical care is difficult to receive. This means that, similar to the ghettos of Nazi Germany, Gaza has become a massive prison where disease and starvation are encouraged. That's one example, but there are many more.

"Any normal rational person will come to the conclusion that yes the root of the world's problems are indeed coming from the evil muslims." - You cannot possibly be serious! Just because the teachings of Islam are disproportionately represented among the poorest, most uneducated, war-torn countries on Earth does not mean that Islam is responsible. For example, examine your list: "Mideast to Africa, India, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Europe, the Philipines, Thailand." The Mideast(specifically Israel, Jordan, Lebanon, etc.), India, and Pakistan are all former parts of the British Empire which were poorly divided in ways guaranteed to cause conflict when the British left. The real cause of this conflict is the fall of colonialism. Even today, much of the conflict is tied to the relations between America, Britain, France, Germany, Spain, Russia, China, and other rich, powerful nations and the poor, 3rd world countries whose land, population, and resources the major powers wish to exploit. I still find it hard to believe that so many people refuse to accept that the Iraqis and Afghans are fighting a battle of resistance against an occupying force. No one wants another country sending their military into their country, no matter how bad things might be there. It's an issue of pride. Instead of recognizing what's actually going on, people just label these groups as terrorists and console their guily conscience by reminding themselves the the thousands of innocent men, women, and children being murdered in their name are "evil."

Posted by: construcivecritic at May 17, 2009 2:16 PM

By the way, Laura, there is a huge Muslim population in Singapore that is not militant and lives in peace with Christians, Buddhists, Hindus, and many others: How? According to you, Muslims are an evil, wicked, violent menace that should be cleansed from the planet....

Posted by: construcivecritic at May 17, 2009 6:30 PM

"By the way, Laura, there is a huge Muslim population in Singapore that is not militant and lives in peace with Christians, Buddhists, Hindus, and many others: How? According to you, Muslims are an evil, wicked, violent menace that should be cleansed from the planet....
..............................................
How about the far more numerous places where muslims don't live in peace with their neighbors, as I mentioned? So you come up with perhaps one place in the world where muslims may not be causing mayhem and that's supposed to be proof that muslims aren't really a violent menace? How does that outweigh the fact that muslims are wreaking havoc in just about every other country where they represent a significant part of the population?

Posted by: Laura at May 17, 2009 8:01 PM
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