Soccer Dad

Is there any point to talking with Hamas?

What would the goal be?
Whenever there have been talks, as in the case of Gilad Shalit, those talks have been about the demands of Hamas.
Talks in regards to Operation Cast Lead resulted in separate unilateral ceasefires.

As in the case of Abbas and the PA, talks do not lead to Palestinian concessions--only Israeli ones.

I hate to ask pointed questions, but does the fact that someone is a member of the democratically-elected Hamas gov't condemn their wife and children as militants as well or is it possible that airstrikes on houses, probably part of a group which is sometimes called a "neighborhood," are a valid object of criticism? Do you really believe that there was no way to kill the militant without killing his wife and children? Of course not, but Israelis don't consider Palestinians to be human beings, so they don't mind slaughtering women and children if it saves an Israeli SOLDIER from the possibility of injury or death during combat. This attitude fuels terrorism and arguments that it does not are inherently absurd. Take, for example, the recent airstrikes in Afghanistan: Why are we losing that war?

The real propaganda war is fought by Israel against itself and by Hamas against itself. Unfortunately for Israel, they launched a war killing 1,400 people in a few weeks in response to rocket attacks which killed 28 people over eight years. I don't understand how that can be considered justifiable. I just can't fathom what sort of sick individual would think that such wholesale slaughter is acceptable.

Israel is the sterotypical victim of child abuse on an international level. Those who are victims at a young age often become abusers as adults because it is their response to the enduring pain of the trauma. It's unfortunate, but doesn't prevent society from locking them up and the same should be done in terms of Israel. Israel's motto, "Never again!" is perfect evidence of this fact. This is the same sentiment that drives victims of all types to protect their vulnerable emotional wound by developing a protective wall of callous anger and vicious, merciless, arrogant aggression. "Never again! I will become so unreasonable, so callous, so predatory, selfish, and unpredictable that no one will ever think of hurting me again!" It is high time that Israel seek counseling on a national level, accept their crimes, and voluntarily accept justice, pleading guilty and throwing themselves upon the mercy of the International Criminal Court.

Do you really believe that there was no way to kill the militant without killing his wife and children?

Do you really deny that the militant himself plays some role in this question?

http://judeopundit.blogspot.com/2009/01/he-would-tease-us-and-ask-if-we-wanted.html

If you want to accept the Palestinian number of 1,400 as accurate--go ahead, but realize that it is debatable, especially in view of other incidences of Palestinian manipulation.

Yet you use the number 1,400 as if all of those killed were civilians--which is clearly not the case.

The fact that Hamas was democratically elected is of course irrelevant--Hitler was as well: so what? The fact that the government is democratically elected is tempered by the fact that they are targeting rockets at Israeli schools.

Do you really believe that there was no way to kill the militant without killing his wife and children? Of course not, but Israelis don't consider Palestinians to be human beings, so they don't mind slaughtering women and children if it saves an Israeli SOLDIER from the possibility of injury or death during combat.

Just to clarify, are you referring to the Hamas leader who was warned in advance of being targeted (you know, by those Israelis who don't value Palestinian life) and instead had his family stay with him to keep Israel from firing.

In that case, his cynicism and exploitation of innocents did not work.

Neither does your arm-chair psychoanalysis of the Israeli mind.

i never knew that these primitive rockets that the palestinians launch had a targeting system that allowed them to target schools ,kindergardens ,hospitals,and everything non military. i always thought they were lucky to hit a target at all.

Let them bombard your neighborhood with those "primitive" rockets or at your children's school, if you have children, and then let's see you dismiss it as insignificant and harmless.

i never knew that these primitive rockets that the palestinians launch had a targeting system that allowed them to target schools ,kindergardens ,hospitals,and everything non military

Thousands of them have been fired, so it is fairly common for civilian buildings to be hit.

laura, you missed the whole point, which in your case is understandable.
the palestinians launch these primitive rocket towards built up areas,such as serdot, and usually they miss altogether due to their inaccuracy. to say they are targeting schools with these rockets is false.a more accurate statement is'they target settlements with schools' .
racist such as yourself need to demonize the palestinian to justify israel oppressive policies and actions.
you should read the comment by constructivecritic ,which is true in every sense, very carefully.

Yitz, check out Meryl Yourish:

First, I researched the grad rocket. It is accurate. It can be targeted.

Then, I checked on Google maps to see how easy it is to map out a school in Israel. Satellite view. No problem.

Then I checked reports of how many kindergartens and schools have been hit by grad rockets.

One.

Earlier Thursday, a Grad rocket hit a school in Ashkelon. The rocket exploded at the school�s gym, which stood empty at the time of the attack. The building sustained damages but no one was injured.

Two.

Rocket fire continues: A Grad rocket hit an empty kindergarten in the port city of Ashdod on Monday afternoon. An air raid siren sounded in Ashdod and Ashkelon at around 3:20 pm. Several people suffered shock, but there were no injuries. The place was heavily damaged.

Three.

Beersheba joined the list of rocket-stricken communities Tuesday evening as an air raid siren sounded across the southern city, followed by several explosions. A Grad missile landed in an empty kindergarten in the city, causing damage. Thirty-four people were treated for shock at the Soroka Medical Center in Beersheba.

Four. (March 2008)

Another rocket landed near a kindergarten in the city, where dozens of children were beginning their day.

As the nursery teachers wiped their tears, they told Ynet that the Color Red alert system was not heard in the kindergarten

Five. (February 2008)

On Thursday a total of 10 rockets hit the beachside city of Ashkelon leaving growing anxiety in their wake. Two long-range Grad rockets fired from the northern Strip hit the city that was previously considered out-of-range of the rockets. One of the rockets landed near a school in the center of town. A 17-year-old girl suffered light shrapnel wounds in the latest attack and several other people suffered from anxiety.

I�m sure there are more. That�s a cursory first check.

Hamas deliberately targets Israeli schools.

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Read the whole thing.

these primitive rockets do not have a guidance system at all. all you can do is roughly predict the range. out of 8000 plus rockets/motars fired at sedot,ashkelon,etc some are bound to land in and around school areas.
its not like they had a guidance system were they could aim at say at a family picnicing on the beach or ambulances full of wounded or even a UN compound.

some are bound to land in and around school areas

Of course, that's the idea. That's what the people firing the rockets want, and their desire is fulfilled often enough that they keep firing them and keep trying to upgrade. And you didn't respond to what Daled Amos said about Grad Rockets.

if all of the rockets fired at the beachside city of Ashkelon landed in or near the school, or even 30%, then you could say that hamas is definately targeting schools.

how are you going to pacificly target a school with a grad rocket which has no guidance system.it just a numbers game- if they fire enough they are bound to hit something including schools.what hamas is doing is totally against international law .but when has international law mattered to israel or hamas

sass, you are a vile individual. hamas is a gang of terrorists who are definitely targeting schools and other civilian infrastructure. That is the very purpose of terrorists, to deliberately target civilians.

Nothing Israel has done has violated international law. They don't purposely target civilians, in fact Israel goes out of its way NOT to do so, as proven by the fact that it gives warnings, such as leaflets and phone calls prior to any military operations in the areas targeted. And it has even risked its own soldiers to avoid harming supposed civilians. Some of us have made this point over and over again, but this always falls on deaf ears with you. Any civilian casualties are the result of terrorists using them as human shields and using civilian infrastructure to conduct their operations. You have no clue about international law.

"racist such as yourself need to demonize the palestinian to justify israel oppressive policies and actions.
you should read the comment by constructivecritic ,which is true in every sense, very carefully".
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You continue to prove what a vile individual you are sass. According to your twisted logic, it is "racist" to oppose hamas targeting of Israeli civilians. Apparently hamas' genocidal aims toward the Jewish people is not racist to you.

that statement,about israel not violating international law,is as accurate as those grad rockets launched by the palestinian resistance fighters, which is as about as accurate as your statement about where the palestinians originated from.

if you do know anything about international law, which i doubt, you are not applying it to israel.
in reguards humanitarian law you obviously have no clue at all.

I repeat, you have no clue about international law. Using civilians as human shields does not exempt hamas and any other terrorist group from being attacked. It is THEY, not Israel who are in violation of international law with its use of human shields. You pretend to understand international law, but its quite obvious you have not read any documents and have no idea what you are talking about.

thats the pot calling the kettle black.israels use of humanshield shields is well documented. here is a example in colour

http://www.notmytribe.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/idf-israeli-uses-human-shield-palestine-2004-daily-mail.jpg

then you have the issue of collective punishment,illegal settlements,excessive indiscrimate use of force, demolishions,targeted killings,boarder violations,etc,etc,etc.all against international law

no other country has violated UN resolutions more than israel, not by a long shot.

"Certain abuses committed by the Israeli army constituted crimes against humanity and war crimes," Amnesty's report says.

the opinion of a professor of law in a americian university
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123154826952369919.html

we do see you in israel.
laura,whats it like to justify the inexcusable.
and you have the nerve to call me vile.

Just a few points:

1. Palestinians use their own women and children as human shields. In one incident hundreds of women were sent into the middle of a standoff between the IDF and 60 militants holed up in a Mosque.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/783577.html

2. Screaming about UN resolutions is a red herring. Just the fact that Israel has a free press places it light years ahead of its enemies where human rights are concerned.

3. The "professor of law in a american university" wouldn't happen to be George Bisharat, would he?

4. And speaking of the Gaza operation, see this:

http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2009/05/casualties-of-truth.html

Many of those supposed civilians killed in Gaza turn out to be members of the Al-Qassam Brigades and the PRC. Some of them appear in photographs on the internet waving around machine guns in poses that suggest they hope to appear in martyr posters.

only pro zionist organisation are stating that most of the civillians were combantant. nearly all the credible indepentant NGOs,red cross and amesty for example, state the opposite. but in your eyes only a pro zionist group who have never critisized israel and are obviously bias in their reporting and investigation are credible.at the end of the day only the babies killed would be deemed non combantants but these organisation.

it was to be expected.nearly after every military conflict the zionist propoganda organisations ramp up and try to rewrite history.

nearly all the credible indepentant NGOs,red cross and amesty for example, state the opposite

Follow the links:

http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2009/04/more-of-those-civilians-killed-in-gaza.html

If someone is identified by a Palestinian News Agency or a Martyr Memorial Site as a militant, what else is there to say? Who are you going to believe, your eyes or "credible independent NGOs"?

using the formular used -if a young man 21 shopping in serdot got killed by a hamas rocket ,that can be classed as a militant who was killed, for he could be called up as a reserve soldier at anytime.

sass, you ARE vile.

You are completely around the bend comparing a soldier of a legitimate army of a democratic, free state to that of a terrorist who's purpose is to slaughter as many Israeli civilians as possible.

using the formular used -if a young man 21 shopping in serdot got killed by a hamas rocket ,that can be classed as a militant who was killed, for he could be called up as a reserve soldier at anytime.

1. Now that you mention it, the Al Qassam Moral Equivalence Brigades often use this line of reasoning to argue that victims of Hamas attacks are not really civilians, but you spent a lot of time stressing that Qassams can't be aimed. So the death of the young man in your example is just the successful outcome of an attempt to kill anybody at all.

2. Let's have as much information as we can about who was killed. Why didn't PCHR identify who belonged to the PRC and who belonged to PIJ and the PFLP and so forth?

3. Speaking of PRC, and PIJ, and PFLP and the rest of the alphabet soup, they have "policemen" and "reservists" as it is claimed for Hamas?

4. Nizar Rayyan was a civilian according to PCHR. Do you agree?

5. If the US kills Bin Laden in his cave, is that killing a civilian?

hamas is a organisation with a military,civil and political wings. you cannot blend all three and claim them to be all militant even if a policeman had previous military training or may be a reservist. the same can be said of israel which is basicly a army with a country. the same formular used in israel should be applied to the palestinians ,not two different formulars.
hamas indiscriminately targets anyone with these crude rockets. israel did indiscriminately bomb parts of gaza in which no where was safe. so all the leaflets or phonecalls warning of bombings didn't mean a thing when your held captive in a war zone.
the palestinians have a warp sense that it is honorable to be martyred in resistance to israeli oppression . why would they deny the militains this honour by claiming them to be civillians. someone needs to tell these guys that you can't build a nation out of the dead.
nizar rayan was a professor,bigot, and serious headcase who preached hate. he reminds me of those rabbis who advocate the killing of palestinians and to drive them away.
http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=79947§ionid=351020202

nizar rayan was a professor,bigot, and serious headcase who preached hate

I asked you if was a civilian. You didn't respond to most of my other points also.

"hamas is a organisation with a military,civil and political wings. you cannot blend all three"
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"The time will come, by Allah's will, when their property will be destroyed and their children will be exterminated, and no Jew or Zionist will be left on the face of this earth." - Hamas religious leader Ziad Abu Alhaj

"he same can be said of israel which is basicly a army with a country".
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Your typical inane, lunatic diatribe. Israel is a western style democracy.

hamas is a organisation with a military,civil and political wings. you cannot blend all three and claim them to be all militant

Leaving aside the question of how careful Hamas really is about those distinctions, you admit that the Izzadin Al Qassam Brigades is the military wing, right? So if the PCHR calls someone a civilian because he is a "policeman" and in the meantime he is identified by the Al Qassam Brigades as one of their own, then we are not getting the whole story, are we?

more information is required to be sure. but the policeman may just be a policeman at the time of his death who had a past in the military wing ,which are honouring him.
bin laden should be classed as a combatant for he is part of military operations,esp the planning. if nizar was part of military operations ,either planning or executing, then he is a combantant. but if he was just a biggot who preached hate then he is a civillian who is no better no worse than some extreme rabbis who also preach hate. nizar rayan has the right to a fair trial ,like all the other targeted killings by israel, in accordance to international law .

israel is nothing like a western democracy.tell me one western democracy which bases citizenship on religion.

"israel is nothing like a western democracy.tell me one western democracy which bases citizenship on religion".
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In the first place Israel has a 20% muslim population who are full citizens of Israel. In the second place, referring to who can immigrate and become citizens, the situation of the Jewish people is unique in that Israel was created as a safe-haven for Jews who faced persecution just about everywhere. Allowing an influx of non-Jews would defeat Israel's very purpose and make Jews once again a persecuted minority under arab-muslim rule. I don't expect you and your vile leftist friends at that point would utter a word of protest as Jews were being subjected to violence, ethnic cleansing and murder at the hands of the muslim majority as is happening to Christians under islamic rule.

BTW yes Israel is indeed a western style democracy.

more information is required to be sure

So this headline was misleading, no?

http://news.asiaone.com/News/AsiaOne%2BNews/World/Story/A1Story20090313-128255.html

but the policeman may just be a policeman at the time of his death who had a past in the military wing ,which are honouring him.

The LA Times referred to "security force" members "moonlighting" as members of the Al Qassam brigades.

http://articles.latimes.com/2009/jan/01/world/fg-gaza-scene1

if nizar was part of military operations ,either planning or executing, then he is a combantant

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull&cid=1230733134624

as phillis bennis stated: All Israeli citizens, including Palestinians, have the right to vote in elections for members of the Knesset (parliament) and for the prime minister. But not all rights are citizenship rights. Other rights are defined as nationality rights, and are reserved for Jews only. If you are a Jew, you have exclusive use of land, privileged access to private and public employment, special educational loans, home mortgages, preferences for admission to universities, and many other things.

you can't compare israel to a western democracy,because western democracies don't use a religion as a precurser for their existance.
in many western democracies jews are quite happy,are safe and they prosper.come to think of it israel isn't a very safe place for a jew to live compared to australia,england,USA,etc. to make one religion a condition of citizenship in a democracy is racist.
the closest you'll get to a jewish state is a islamic republic, so you should critisize iran which bases its existance also on religion.
but to compare israel to countries such as australia,canada,USA,england is demeaning to their secular democracy.someone should sue israel for libel for even using the words 'western style democracy' because they have made a mockery of it.

the 24000 palestinian jews in 1921 were in fact opposed to the creation of a jewish homeland in a arab state and didn't consider themselves as being persecuted.but the alien immigrant zionist from europe changed all that.

zionism needs anti semitism because without jewish persecution zionism wouldn't make sense.