Soccer Dad

Just one thing.... What about the problems that a nuclear-armed Israel poses to the Middle East peace process? Would Iran feel the need for nuclear arms if not for the two nuclear-armed nations in the neighborhood - Israel and Pakistan? Would it be such a concern for Iran if Israel had not shown such a lack of hesitation to use its military to strike its neighbors whenever and wherever it sees fit? Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Sudan, and so on.... All have been the victims of Israeli aggression and yet Israel expects the world to actively deny their neighbors the means to defend themselves. How should they defend themselves? Israel declares legitimate resistance movements like Hamas and Hezbollah "terrorist organizations," similar to the global "sh*t on everything" group Al Qaeda. If neither convention nor unconventional means are acceptable, are we to assume that you feel all Arab nations should just submit to the will of their apartheid overlords? Perhaps Israelis should try having a wee bit wider perspective and consider that all people are equally deserving of basic rights. Although, I doubt those who feel that 100 gazans are equal in value to one Israeli life are likely to ever start thinking of arabs as human beings.

Israeli aggression? I hope you don't mean the 6 Day war? Israel isn't calling for the destruction of any Arab nations... they are the ones that want Israel to be entirely destroyed, that's why he wants nukes. Yes, Iran wants to kill all the Jews, sounds like someone from history we all hate.

To construcivecritic,

First of all, Israel "strikes its neighbors" only AFTER being FIRST provoked by these "neighbors." Funny how you fail to mention that FACT. Israel has a right to defend itself against the aggressions of its "neighbors," especially when the ruling governments of the "neighbors" fail to act by reining in rogue militant radicals who are conducting "terrorist operations" from their soil. Or, what do you call aimless assaults on civilian populations inside Israel? What do you call suicide bombers on civilian buses? What do you call militant radical actions behind the civilian shields of their own people? What do you call militant radical actions without sanction from the recognized and legitimate governing authority?

Second, Hamas and Hezbollah ARE "terrorist organizations" and are classified so by the majority of world governments. You show your true bias here by implying that they are not. See the last 4 questions in the paragraph above.

Third, IF Israel is nuclear armed, then they have proved that they are not a threat as they have never threatened or intimidated anyone with the use of nuclear weapons. Furthermore, they have never threatened to "wipe any country of the face of the map." as Iran has. So, your argument that Iran may feel the need for nuclear arms for protection is ridiculous because it is ONLY Iran who incites such a violent discord and indicates the direct and unambiguous intention of such militant desires and action. If Israel ever acts directly against Iran, it will again be in the face of self-preservation. But, of course after, you will want to ignore Iran's provocative "actions" and posturing, and focus only on Israel's "RE-action."

Fourth, This is NOT a Arab-Israeli conflict as you portend. ONLY radical militant terrorists, and their sympathizers, try to produce this perspective as a sympathy and recruiting tool. Any Israeli conflict is solely perpetuated by rogue militant terrorist organizations who fail to comply with legitimate diplomatic channels for conflict resolution. Whenever any success is achieved in the peace process (peace process refers to compromise by ALL parties), it is immediately undermined by these terrorist organizations, such as Hamas or Hezbollah, who demand no compromise be given and rebel through the use of terrorist tactics as a means of forcing their "wee tiny tiny perspective".

You only want Israel to act with discipline and restraint in the face of unbridled terrorist aggression. You only want Israel to indicate recognition of basic rights of others by only denying their own basic rights.

This will never happen.

"Once the head of the camel is inside the tent, the rest is not far behind." Iranian Proverb!

Whoever thinks that once the Iranians POSSESS one nuclear device they will stop there, without going for two or six or equivalence with Israel, is looking at the head of the camel and praying that there is no more of it!

Nor are the chess-inventing Iranians about to play an existential game with just a back line made up of Ayatollahs protecting an Imam. Iran will not put all its nuclear eggs into a single missile. Rather there will be SMALL nuclear warheads in Lebanon, Syria and Gaza, and a few BIG ONES in Iran.

Oh! Yes! Israel has time! Borrowed Time!

Times like these make me think of my favorite tune
from the Beach Boys, "Barbara Ann". I think it is time to change the words to "Bomb..Bomb...Bomb..BOMB BOMB IRAN....." Go for it Israel. The USA will probably not be any assitance as we, unfortunately, have a spineless appeasement lover president and a leftwing socialist agenda driven congress and senate. God bless Israel and God help us here in the "People's Republic of America"

All this tension in the Middle East between Israel and the arabic people,would be long gone,if Israel would have submitted to the UN resolution and given back the palestinian territories invaded during the 1967 war,or at least,they would together comply to draw a more sensible frontier,than the one that existed before 1967

Imagine Katrucia rockets and other rockets from Iran in the hands of Hamas and Hezbolla, can someone with insight tell me why and how nuclear warheads won't get to the hands of these people that are ready to die (Hamas and Hezbolla). Iran might not directly use the nuclear weapons atleast for now but their arms (Hamas and Hezbolla) will happily use it. Isreal! save yourself

Mr Haase, is it a coincidence that you have the same name as the SS doctor, personal physician of Hitler?. That simplistic way to put the blame in Israel policy, as the real impass of the lack of solution of this middle east problem, is very bias. Remember the 3 Nos of the arab league vis a vis Israel.

Who the hell is anybody kidding?.Jews run the US Congress,Wall Street,Hollywood and the media so nothing is going to happen.Lieberman and all the others will pressure the US Government to continue the current policy of supporting Israel even if the latter attacks Iran.We are in bed with the jews and this irrelevant marriage is not easy to break without horrendous consequences for the USA in general.

Israel has repeatedly tried to give away the West Bank and Gaza for peace, but the Arabs keep rejecting it. Israel agreed to do it in 1947, but the Arabs rejected it and invaded. Israel tried in 1967, right after the war, but the Arabs rejected it. Israel tried in 2000, but the Arabs rejected it and started an Intifada. Israel gave away Gaza for free in 2005, and it has become a hellhole. Instead using Gaza as a place to grow organic fruit to export to the world, as Israel did, the Arabs are using it to kill each other and attack Israel. It's just another example of how land for peace fails. Only peace for peace, and an end to hatred can work.

to "constructivecritic", how is it that you can criticize Israel without giving responsibility to iran for supporting known terrorist organizations like hamas, hezbollah, and dozens of other terroristic groups throughout the middle east and the world who systematically attack Israel with kazn and qazan rockets on a daily basis. iran does NOT even border Israel yet it is waging an illegal proxy terrorist war upon a country that has NOT attacked iran. your ignorance, bias and stupidity is downright appalling.

I'd like to point out some things for you to chew on. First, how can you demand that a country be responsible for every action of every citizen? This is one of my main issues with Israel. Can Israel stop its illegal settler populations from harassing and provoking, if not outright terrorizing palestinians? I don't see a feasible way without a completely totalitarian police state. Second, I distinguish between international terrorist organizations bent on "global jihad" and groups like Hamas and Hezbollah whose stated purpose is forceful resistance to the illegal Israeli occupation. Third, if Israel withdrew to the 1967 borders and acted to establish a Palestinian state, the burden would shift to the Palestinians. The fact is that, in reality, Israel makes little effort to create a lasting peace. If terrorists destroyed your home and killed all but three of your relatives, would you not consider violent revenge? Operation Cast Lead did not make Israel safer - it bred a whole new generation of terrorists with a very personal reason to fight. By subsequently refusing to allow building materials and other supplies into Gaza, it legitimizes the militant's call to arms. And yet, when this army of desperate individuals who have lost their INNOCENT children, parents, and spouses at the hands of the IDF attack in the future, Isreal will use it as an excuse to derail the peace process. How many palestinians have been imprisoned on false accusations? Yet, until Gilad Shalit is returned, the Israeli gov't refuses to make serious effort at peace... I don't support Israel's enemies, nor do I dislike Jews. I just think that there is an international policy of one-sided support which maintains the status quo and prevents peace. I think that both sides should be held accountable for breaking agreements equally. I think Hamas and IDF forces and commanders (and American too) should both be subject to fair, unbiased investigation, prosecution, and execution if they are found to have committed war crimes. We punished the NAZIs and Japanese in WWII for atrocities and all governments should be similarly held responsible.

Oh, and Steve - I think that, as we saw in the whopping zero WMDs found in Iraq, unilateral military action is a really bad idea. If Israel feels that it is facing an existential threat, the proper response is to go to the U.N. and garner support for a coordinated effort. The only reason Israel can give for not doing this is to point at how many U.N. resolutions they have violated and the amazing lack of action taken against them. (And before anyone says it, I know that Israel investigated itself and cleared itself of war crimes. I'd like to direct your attention to the media circus in the U.S. right now. Count how many times someone says that we should not release memos and photos of illegal prisoner abuse because it could cause anger and retribution against our forces around the globe. No country has any reason to convict itself of war crimes and every reason to clear itself of any wrongdoing. The only real solution is an independent international investigation - anything else is political masturbation and nothing more.)

construcivecritic at April 26, 2009 5:17 PM

"First, how can you demand that a country be responsible for every action of every citizen?"
So, is Hamas is responsible for the rocket attacks on Sderot? If not, then why should the Israelis be responsible for stopping settlers?

"Second, I distinguish between international terrorist organizations bent on "global jihad" and groups like Hamas and Hezbollah whose stated purpose is forceful resistance to the illegal Israeli occupation."
YOU distinguish; Hezbollah doesn't! Was it OK to attack a Jewish centre in Argentina as part of their forceful resistance to the Occupation? Oh wait, killing Jews anywhere is allowed because Israel is a Jewish State!

"If terrorists destroyed your home and killed all but three of your relatives, would you not consider violent revenge?" Oh yes, I would, and that's why the Israelis whack as many of these snakes as they can--only the Israelis kill the Hamas out of REVENGE; Hamas kills Israelis out of a deep-felt, eternal LOVE!

"Yet, until Gilad Shalit is returned, the Israeli gov't refuses to make serious effort at peace..."
Well now! Did you offer this priceless insight to Barry Obama before he ordered the SEALS to blow the frickin' heads off those freedom fighters who were holding that wicked captain-person hostage!

"I don't support Israel's enemies, nor do I dislike Jews...." Liar, double Liar!

"We punished the NAZIs and Japanese in WWII for atrocities and all governments should be similarly held responsible...."

WE? WE??? What did you do during the war, daddy-o? Did YOU punish the Nazis and the Japanese? Will you punish YOURSELF for this atrocity of a letter?

Nah! You don't want Governments punished; you want The Israeli Government punished! How? if there were no Israel, there would be no Israeli Government. Would that be punishment enough!

And then after that you, with your heart as big as a louse, would be held responsible for the atrocity committed in YOUR name and at YOUR urging!

construcivecritic:
You wrote "Hezbollah whose stated purpose is forceful resistance to the illegal Israeli occupation." Israel does not occupy Lebanon. Hezbollah's goal is to destroy Israel and murder Jews worldwide (as it did in Argentina twice in the 1990's).
You wrote "First, how can you demand that a country be responsible for every action of every citizen?" Answer: By punishing people who break the law. If Hamas punished terrorists who launch rockets and mortars at Israeli civilians, and who sent suicide bombers and shooters, there would be peace.
Hezbollah has killed many people in Lebanon, and Hamas sides with the Islamic Brotherhood that has killed ten of thousands in Egypt. All of them are part of Global Jihad. Why do you think that Egypt didn't want Gaza?
You wrote: "if Israel withdrew to the 1967 borders and acted to establish a Palestinian state, the burden would shift to the Palestinians." Then, why was there no peace before 1967? Also, why did the Arabs reject those borders in 1967 after the war, and why did Arafat reject them in 2000?
You wrote: "If terrorists destroyed your home and killed all but three of your relatives, would you not consider violent revenge?" Many Israeli families have been destroyed by terrorism. They didn't seek violent revenge. Nor did any Jewish families after the Holocaust. Suicide bombing and other terror is caused by bigotry and hatred, not poverty or loss of life. People all over the world have lost whole families and are in abject poverty, but they don't resort to terror: Darfurians, North Koreans, American Indians, Tibetans, Aboriginies. Very few Palestinians have lost whole families, and Palestinians have more money than other Arabs from non-oil-producing countries.
The building materials in Gaza were used to make rockets. Why should Israel let any more in?
Israel can't get UN support because Israel is not allowed to be on the Security Council. Israel has no vote. That's like asking African Americans in the South over 50 years ago to go to the authorities with their grievances.
There was a change in the Israeli government before the investigation. If there were war crimes, the new government could have easily stuck it to its opponents, just like Barack Obama may decide to prosecute Republicans for torturing prisoners.

This is my final comment. If you want to know where terrorism comes from, it is pretty simple. When countries like America, Israel, Britain, and others fight asymmetrical wars, the only choice for the individuals on the receiving end is guerrilla warfare - what is now being called "terrorism." When Israel uses fighter jets with 500 and 1,000 pound bombs and precision, laser-guided missles against an impoverished, densely-populated territory which doesn't even have an air-force, how should Gazans respond. They don't have tanks, APCs, F-14s, F-16s, UAVs, and all the other modern death-tech. They just plain can't fight a conventional war against such a vastly superior enemy. I live in a country where, every fourth of July, we celebrate the guerrilla war that the American settlers waged against their British overlords. In Afghanistan, when we gave Osama Bin Laden Stinger missles and training to fight a guerrilla war against the soviets, the mujahadeen were "freedom fighters" - now, they're "terrorists." That is why I defend Hamas and Hezbollah: I see them as "freedom fighters" resisting an unjust occupation. The "War on Terror" is creative word-game and propaganda effort which solves nothing. The solution for terrorism is the end of asymmetrical war and unilateral military action. By relabeling freedom-fighters as terrorists, the tech-savvy, wealthy countries are just delaying the inevitable. One day, if we want to live in peace, we must accept that war involves casualties and that our soldiers know when they join that they may be forced to die for their country, but killing innocents with aerial bombardment and disguising troop movements with white phosphorous shells which we know will cause horrific disfigurement of civilians is not a cure, but a treatment. We must decide that the enemy, like us, just wants to be happy, prosperous, and free from suffering and dispel the idea that our soldiers' lives are more valuable than the lives of their citizens. We must look at the big picture and act in the interest of peace instead of a brief cease-fire. If we stand up for freedom, justice, equality, and morality, it doesn't matter what happens because we did what was right (and I, for one, believe that if we act with integrity and conscience, our enemies cannot win because the whole world will stand at our side, but if we are selfish, petty, and cruel, no one will come to our aid.) If Israel rises up and decides to do what is right, to be the strong one and stand for goodness and justice, the militants will already be defeated because the world will see their selfish, hateful ways for what they are. Right now, both sides are hateful, selfish, dishonest, whiny, and obstruct the peace process, so the world sides with the underdog - the impoverished, poorly trained, occupied Palestinians.

Fanatical muslims can NEVER be trusted to do anything but create havoc and death. If it were not for the pansies in charge of most of the worlds governments we would already be rid of mahmood "little hitler" ahmenidenijahd and his band of merry mullahs. They would have been incinerated by 20,000 degree fire as they sat at one of thier military parades. Wake up people. Nuts like this only understand one thing. Raw terrible power.

Jerry - the whole gov't did not change. There will be no meaningful prosecutions in America because the Democrats know that Nancy Pelosi and many other democrats are just as guilty as all but perhaps the top 5 Bush aides. Under international law, anyone who is present and fails to object, regardless of the consequences, is just as guilty as those who actually carry out war crimes. Right now, they want to prosecute the lawyers (a very difficult case) and not the interrogators (a slam-dunk, impossible to lose case; Neuremberg established that "following orders" is not an excuse and by prosecuting Japanese for waterboarding, we established that waterboarding is a war crime. If it can be proven they did the interrogation, they are guilty, no reasonable defense. Unfortunately, it won't happen.).

constructivecritic. How can you see Hamas and hezbollah as "freedom fighters"? While I do not approve of the aparthied situation in Israel I would never call the fanatical scum that oppose the situation freedom fighters. Were there to be no Israel there would still be these scum who want to control others with thier book of lies the koran. At this point every woman or child killed by the bombings from Israeli planes are the fault of Hamas. Period. Stop firing rockets and they will stop bombing. Not that hard to figure out. Israel has shown tremendous restraint. if I were in charge they would have been given one chance to stop or I would have bombed thier areas into dust.;

BTW, last year little, weak Georgia was invaded and destroyed by superpower Russia, yet no Georgians blew up Russian buses, restaurants, schools, etc. Weak Darfur was ethnically cleansed by the army of Sudan and by irregulars, but there was no terrorism. Tibet is brutally occupied by China, but no terrorism. So much for construcivecritic's argument.
Unlike construcivecritic, I celebrate freedom on July 4th. I don't celebrate guerilla warfare. And Americans did not target British civilians, just British troops.
By relabeling terrorists as freedom-fighters, the tech-savvy, wealthy countries are just delaying the inevitable.

Land for peace does not appear to be an option for
Israel. Look what has happened to the Gaza Strip. Israel gave it back to the Palestenians and now it is a terrorist nightmare for the Israelis. There is no other country that has been requested to return lands captured in return for a supposed peace. There will be no peace in that region of the world because if the Arab do not have the Jews to fight, they will fight among themselves. These decendents of Isaac (Jews)and Ishmeal (Arabs) have been in conflict for centuries. Peace will only be achieved when JESUS returns to this earth to recieve his bride (the christians) into Heaven. Peace can only be achieved by starting in the hearts of each individual person. As long as there is hate,envy,jealosy,lusts,etc in the minds of people any peace accord can only be temporary.READ the BIBLE (Gods Word), Accept JESUS as your savior from your sins, and be ready when JESUS comes again.

Jerry.... Ask Sudan and China if there has been terrorism in Darfur and Tibet. They'll tell you yes. I'm a Buddhist, so I do follow the news (what escapes the communist censors) from Tibet. China considers the riots a year ago as terrorist activities and there have also been bombs placed under police cars and other small-scale attacks. If it weren't for the Dalai Lama, there would likely be more. In Sudan, the rebels are likewise considered terrorists - in fact, I just read a report about ten rebels being sentenced to death on such charges. This supports my argument that any and all resistance movements / insurrections are now labeled as terrorism. And, what about the Chechnyan separatists? Does Russia consider them rebels or terrorists? Oh, and Mervin - you and your eveangelical brothers pushing for unconditional support of apartheid Israel in HOPES of sparking a nuclear holocaust because you think it will fulfill biblical prophecy and initiate the rapture are going to burn in hell, you know that right? (And yes, we do believe in hell, just not an eternal one. Gods and demons die eventually according to Buddhist scripture, which is just as valid as Christian, Jewish, or Muslim scripture.) It's no more Christian to pray for nuclear holocaust than it is Muslim to kill innocent civilians or Jewish to displace a large native population out of fanatical support for a zionist movement. You fundamentalist/ extremist fringes are 90% of the problem because you really believe some reward is waiting in death for your hateful, despicable life.

Has anyone considered simply taking Gaza, the West Bank, East Jerusalem, etc. and giving them back to the U.N.? Just, pull back, create a Palestinian state, and say to the U.N. "here, we did what you asked. Here is a Palestinian state. It is now up to you to provide an international peace-keeping force to facilitate the transition to an sovereign, independent, democratic nation." How could the U.N. say no? It would be political suicide for just about every major member-nation. The only condition: It would have to be a democracy - no re-occupation if an election doesn't go the way you want. Plus, what better way to moderate Hamas than give them the responsibilities of a real government? Look at what has happened in Lebanon since Hezbollah became a major political player - They even cracked down on groups trying to fire rockets during Operation Cast Lead! Just a thought...

osiderover I take issue with your characterization of Israel as practicing apartheid. Considering your defense of Israel otherwise, your use of that word is rather odd.

It's very simple. If Israel gave up it's weapons and was no longer a military threat, It would be overrun in no time by it's neighbors. On the other hand if Israel's neighbors had no weapons to attack Israel with there would be instant peace! I don't buy that Israel is the aggressor for one second. Unfortunately Israel is put in some very tough situations on how to handle actions it's neighbors are taking. On the palestinians, They had a monumental opportunity to get the vast majority of the land back from the pre 1967 border but decided they would rather start an intifada. Is it any wonder why israel is not very quick to give land for peace any more.

The most seamless liars who ever lived antisemites and babylon who decided they were decendents of Ishmael 1000 years ago, got it right. The Arabs and their antisemitic trickster fans definitely got it right! They should boycott Jewish products especially, those of Lisa Meitner, and Leo Tzillard, please dont be hypocrites. The man who never did the Holacaust, said all modern physics was a hoax, and claimed it was fraudelant Jewish science, on multiple occasions. So did Rommels North African army of Musselmen. Then you chose the Soviet Union as your big patron, after Haim Soloman died and was tortured to create America the Jews followed their heart and chose America. Now you decided, as per usual, to forge and change history to hide the prolific Jews, who made the correct bets in these cases, and on monotheism according to you today. But if you go back far enough the Jews will have been erased its inevetble with so many enemies. The Jews are a fig tree that can produce no fruit (New Testament interpretation of a prophecy), well not if antisemites cant cheat.

construcivecritic:
I guess that we disagree on a lot more. I donate money to Tibetans and American Indians, and I have boycotted China over it human rights since Tiannamen Square in 1989.
Gaza is run by the Palestinians, and it has been destroyed and become a war zone, both with Israel and against each other. Hezbollah is leading Lebanon to the brink of a civil war.
How do you feel about the Arabs who ethnically cleansed the Jews from the West Bank from 1920-1948? Hebron was a 3000 year old Jewish community, until its members were brutally killed in 1929. Pregnant women were cut open alive so their fetuses could be stabbed, too. Eastern Jerusalem contains the Jewish Quarter, who residents were forcibly expelled or killed in 1948. 57 of its 58 synagogues were destroyed. In 1912, the NY Times wrote about the Jewish communities in Palestine, including 35 on what is now called the West Bank. Why don't you care that these people who were a displaced (or murdered) native population?

I guess that we also agree about Darfur. I went to Washington, DC to protest the human rights violations that are being commited by the Sudnaese government and its allies against the innocent black people of Darfur. BTW, Israel has taken in more Darfur refugees than any country that doesn't border Darfur.

Oh! Yes! Israel has time! Borrowed Time!
Israel may be living on borrowed time, but don't get too pro Arab till the nuclear clouds clear. Israel has had nukes for about 35 years and not used them. It is now estimated to have about 300 and they are deployed as a "trident" after US and former Soviet models. They have at least 3 nuclear missile subs, including 2 German built stealth boats. If Israel is taken out, the entire Arab world will probably go with them.

Jerry - I do, but I focus on the territories which have been captured and which are explicitly identified as points of interest in peace negotiations brokered by America (not exactly an honest impatial broker, eh?). I'd like to note, as well, that I was just reading about the plight of native Jews in Yemen, who are targeted every time Israel or America attacks an arab group/state - specifically Gaza, Lebanon, and Iraq mentioned in the story. If you review my prior comments, you'll notice that I don't feel that Israeli jews are helped by actions like Cast Lead, so my concerns aren't just with the Palestinians, but also with the Israelis, Americans, and Europeans who are caught in the fallout. Every Muslim extremist group in the world, including Iran uses the Palestinian Occupation as a rallying cry. If you really think that they are not sincere, the best option is to call their bluff and implement a two-state solution. I also have great concern for the Native American population which was decimated to make room for the European immigrants settling the New World, the Cathars and other groups exterminated in the Crusades, and all displaced, oppressed, and "ethnically-cleansed" groups. Unfortunately, some problems are simpler to solve than others. Take Somalia - Piracy would not be possible if there were a stable gov't. After 15 years of utter neglect, the situation is dire and extremely complicated. Had we acted decisively and recognized that it wasn't just an African problem fifteen years ago, the solution would've been simpler. How many groups in Africa have been driven from their lands? Unfortunately, America is quick to use its might but slow to mobilize its nation-building capacity. If we don't eradicate the underlying causes and the issues which feed the instability, no amount of munitions and bombing campaigns will create lasting peace. The problem I have is, when I see that over 450 children were killed in Operation Cast Lead, I ask why. Yes, I'm sure Hamas uses human shields and they should be tried in an international court for war crimes, but you can't try them and not the IDF members. Was there no other way? Army Rangers are trained to enter a building and quickly dispatch targets while not shooting non-targets. I refuse to believe that Israel doesn't have such qualified, well-trained Special Forces. If Hamas was hiding behind civilians, Israel could've used Special Forces to take them out without killing civilians. Unfortunately, Israel thinks that the lives of Israelis are exponentially more valuable than the lives of Palestinians, so they choose fire high-explosives into one of the most densely-populated areas on the planet, commit such atrocities as murdering over 450 children, and create undeniably valid grievances which fuel Hamas' recruitment and make Israeli civilians less rather than more safe instead of using ground forces who might be killed. It is facts like the murder of almost 500 children that make me view Hamas and Hezbollah as at least somewhat legitamate. I can't believe that all the police cadets the IDF murdered at their graduation ceremony were islamofascists and would-be suicide bombers: Surely many of them were like any other police cadets, dreaming of helping prevent crimes and bring justice to criminals. I don't believe that every member of a militant organization supports the destruction of Israel: Surely most have families to feed and chose, for many reasons, the organization that most closely matched their own beliefs while actually providing the potential for effective action. How many join because of their own, personal grievances like losing their wife, home, and four of six children for the crime of living next door to a Hamas militant? How many lost relatives who were struck down while praying at their local mosque because, unbeknownst to them, Hamas was using the mosque to store munitions? How many lost relatives who died slowly, over many days because the IDF intentionally refused to allow ambulances to evacuate them to a hospital? I don't believe that all militants are delusional monsters - it doesn't make their actions less wrong, but it does make them more understandable.

What contributes to terrorism continuing under any circumstance that is attributable to Hamas, Hezbollah, Al-Queda etc?

The fact there is a lack of condemnation by Muslims/Arabs. When Palestinian linked groups attack Israel the people cheer. Why? Palestinians are but more step REMOVED from peace not TOWARDS peace. Any terrorism committed against Israel or the US is cheered and applauded. At the same time those who cheer weep for their loved ones who are killed in return by Israel or the US. Extremists have no place in any society. To support them is playing with fire for what do you have to give in return? A slippery slope my friends.

If Arabs/Muslims wholly reject those who are �fighting for them� by targeting and systematically attacking civilians, then you may have a ripe opportunity for true peace. The extremist�s power resides in the people who support them, plain and simple. What has Hamas/Hezbollah delivered to the Palestinians? How have their lives prospered? More misery?

Palestinians lack basic needs such as food and water, they are economically crippled. Much of Gaza�s business and many jobs are in Israel. So just keep attacking Israel and that will help in these areas? I must be missing something.

Another question, why are the Palestinians the Arab worlds rallying cry? Most Arab governments could give a damn about the Palestinians. They are filthy, sub human beings, the equivalent in the Arab world to what blacks in the US were once considered.

Why is it that much of the aid to the Palestinians comes from the US and the EU? Why does IRAN care about Palestinians? The country is PERSIAN not Arab! Where is the above table aid from Arab governments?

Folks it is about Israel and the fact that they exist. Somebody noted the peace deal Arafat had a number of years ago that he rejected. Ironic isn�t it how that deal was better than what Palestinians are asking for today.

Somebody suggested handing over all of Palestinian claimed territory and then there would be no more excuses to attack Israel. Ok, on the contrary, Palestinians stop supporting these extremist groups and Israel has no justification to continue blocking aid or any other self imposed economic sanctions when the attacks stop permanently.

A vicious circle.

thing I have never understood is why american taxes pay for isreals resupply,repeairs etc on top of the donatioons it gets. It isnt like we get anything back for it here in the states. We have tons of debt,the homeless,the jobless etc. So why are we still throwing money at them? If they are a state of ours fine but otherwise isnt it a countries responsibility to secure and maintain its own sovergnty? If we as the US secure it for them with arms,ammunition and technitions arent they in reality nothing more than a client state? Lets call a rose a rose here. That money would be better off kept at home...then again if charity starts at home as so many profess why arent we feeding all thosed who are out of work and home now? Ive heard "its for the children" for years now,but what about tyhe children starving in Oakland,Ca or NYC,NY or Detroit,MI? They are there...I know I have SEEN them. Not on the net,not on TV nor on some infomercial,but WITH MY OWN EYES. Something to think about isnt it?

to clarify, I am not saying Palestinians are filthy, sub human beings. That is how they are truly viewed in Arab/Muslim countries.

Before I leave, to tie this back to the story - if Israel attacks Iran or persuades America to do so, the ones who lose are the Israeli civilians and the jews of the Middle East. The U.S. believes that Iran's nuclear program is too distributed to be effectively delayed and, after Israel struck numerous nuclear sites in the past, I'm sure that Iran took steps to guard against such an attempt. Given the doubt I've seen reported about Iran's ability to mass-produce low-enriched reactor fuel, I wonder if the Iranian nuclear program isn't just a giant "kick me" sign that Iran hopes to bait Israel with as a valid pretext for war. In all reality though, I would bet that, just as the U.S. is seeking energy independence, Iran is seeking an industry to replace oil in the next twenty-five years, when electric cars replace those relying on petroleum distillates and much of the conflict with the IAEA is related to likely-legitimate concerns about Iraeli/ American Intelligence Operatives planted in the inspection teams and using the inspections as cover for intelligence operations. Or, Iran might be trying the Israeli "maybe we have nukes, maybe we don't - you decide" deterrent method. One way or another, any action which is taken without the support of the global community will only cost the lives of innocent civilians and escalate tensions. Oh, and thanks for supporting the Tibetans and the people of Darfur Jerry. The best way to help the Native Americans, in my observation, is through advances in treating diabetes because it is really devastating their people.

Michael,

That is a very protectionist comment. Unfortunately, we pay our taxes and our government spends them. That is how it works. I pay into Social Security and I sure as hell won�t get a benefit. Or, what about all the stimulus money going to some people who simply can�t spend within their means and have gotten in over their heads financially.

When you can get the US to stop providing aid to Israel or Saudi Arabia or Pakistan or numerous other countries maybe I can stop paying for others greed and financial irresponsibility greed

I understand the Israeli's goal of a monolithic Zionist state, but I don't understand how they plan to remove several million Palestinians from the West Bank. Could it be that they will take of page from the Nazi and initiate their own Final Solution?

construcivecritic:
You wrote that 450 children were killed by the recent Gaza war. 450 is the number of civilians killed, inclduing men, women, and children. Can you find a war anywhere where fewer civilians were killed?
America's and England's war against Iraq has killed 87,000-110,000 people, mostly civilians.
You wrote "I also have great concern for the Native American population which was decimated to make room for the European immigrants settling the New World, the Cathars and other groups exterminated in the Crusades, and all displaced, oppressed, and "ethnically-cleansed" groups." Can you show me anywhere that you have posted messages about the plights of those groups?
The Hamas "policemen" are not what most people think of as police, unless your city also has police that carry machine guns, rocket propelled grenades, and anti-tank missiles. They are paramilitary units.
If things were so bad in Gaza, Hamas would have stopped launching missiles at Israel. Instead, they are still doing it to this day. They got billions in aid from the war (their own stimulus package), and are in much better shape than before. This war has helped them a great deal.
There are hundreds of Palestinians, including a few dozen members of Hamas, in Israeli hospitals, because Israel cares about their lives.
Gaza is not "one of the most densely-populated areas on the planet." Macau is 11 times as densely populated, Hong Kong is more than double. Manhattan is 8 times as much. If Israel controlled 1/3 of Gaza until 2005, then a lot of the area is open since Israel left.

Michael:
Many countries get foreign aid, such as Egypt. Israel provides the US with many things, such as a stable place to store their weapons in the Middle East, and intelligence. Israel and France warned the US a month before Sept. 11th, but they were ignored. Israel has also helped America capture several top terrorists.

I'm a professor of military history and some of the sentiments expressed here are, well, giving me the creeps. I wish that some of you were in my classes.

First, let me start me the issue of funding Israel. In addition to the points that have already been made, the USA benefitted immensely from Israeli urban combat doctrine and technology that was passed on, especially leading up to 2003. This probably saved hundreds, if not thousands, of young American lives. I dare any one of you to look a mother or father, brother or sister, wife or husband in the face and say, "we have to stop fundin' dem' Jews, but don't worry, it'll only cost us YOUR loved ones." Fact is, Israel benefits from us and we benefit from them; that's called a symbiotic relationship.

Second, construcivecritic, you've got a very traditional, naive leftist point of view. I know, I used to be there myself. What finally did it for me was 2000. When the PA turned down Barak's offer I gave up on them. And please don't tell me that it was because the Israelis weren't 'serisous' as Palestinian revisionists would have the world believe. The reason why is that they ONLY got 92% of what they were asking. Think about that. With the poverty, opression, and instability of their people, one of their lead negiators said that the offer in 2000 was easy to turn down because, "after all, it was only 92%." At that point these are not negotiations..... all of this could have been over and this is now ALL their fault. Sorry, it isn't nice to say, but it is incontrovertably true. Would you like the links and documents?

Third, despite the fact that I have despised the now defunct Bush administration, they were right about the fascist origins of both the Ba'ath party and other Arabist movements. The sad part is that most Westerners either don't want to hear that or were so repulsed by Bush that they viewed what was being said as propaganda. Still, it is true. Modern Islamic, Arab nationalist, and other related movements are influenced by fascist/Nazi ideology or dominated by it. consequently, how they choose to deal with Israel and Jews is pretty well spelled out as gospel and this doesn't really allow for any long-term cooperative dealings.

I could go on, but for the moment I'll wait. I have a question though: where do most people stand on the issue of Tibet? I ask because this was brought up, but also because I have an admitted alterior motive.

ifmost palestinians are such peace loving people then why after 9/11 did the mojority of them dance in the street and pass out candy after 3000 inocent people died. also ive read the koran and if you are a nonbeleiver you are to be destroyed.and if allah is so great why are five million jews kicking the shit out of one billion muslim. the muslim wont to control the world.they are the only religion that if you try to change religion you will be punish to death.real peace loving people.get a life .there are still some who will be vigelent and not be swayed by lies from islam.

The Israelis won't be happy until every Arab man, woman and child is killed. The old saying holds true..."The persecuted become the persecutors." As much as we would like to think of Israel as a "peace loving country," their thirst for revenge, and "100 of them killed for every one of us" points to their true nature. The Germans employed the same 'kill ratio' in Eastern Europe when any one of their elite was murdered. So much for a 'peace loving Israel.'

AEWHistory:
I agree with most of what you say. Dennis Ross also said that Israel offered Arafat 95% of the West Bank and all of Gaza, plus land from inside of Israel "to make up" for the other 5%, but Arafat refused and launched an Intifada. Even the Saudis and Egyptians were pissed at Arafat.
I am pro-Tibetan independence or autonomy. I have donated to the International Campaign for Tibet for many years. I think that China should dismantle its new railroad there, start letting Tibetans practice their religion in peace, allow the Dalai Lama back, set free the young boy who is the second most important Tibetan (according to their religion), and stop killing Tibetans.

Doug:
If that's the case, then why did they sign peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan?
Israel has lost over 16000 people in wars and terrorism. Are you saying that over 1.6 million Arabs have been killed by Israelis? Where are all of these dead people?
Gaza has been attacking Israel with missiles for years, and Israel finally responded by counter-attacking. The West Bank has been mostly quiet, except for a few incidents here and there, and Israel hasn't attacked it. Now, do you see the cause and effect?
If Israel has hundreds of nuclear weapons, they could kill as many Arabs as they want. Evidently, they aren't interested in killing.

DID YOU KNOW THAT THERE ARE MORE JEWS IN IRAN THAN ANYWHERE ELSE IN THE MIDDLE EAST BESIDES ISRAEL? THEY ARE NOT PERSECUTED. THEY HAVE BEEN THERE FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS. DONT BELIEVE THE HYPE. THE BEST THING FOR THE JEWS WOULD BE FOR THEM TO STOP BELIEVING THE BS OF THE ZIONIST HAWKS.

DID YOU KNOW THAT THERE ARE MORE JEWS IN IRAN THAN ANYWHERE ELSE IN THE MIDDLE EAST BESIDES ISRAEL?

But fewer Persian Jews than in Israel (and Israel has fewer than the United States does.)

Hey did you know: There are more arabs within Israel's borders than Jews in Iran. And by the way Israel is a fraction of the size of Iran. don't be Ignorant and try to spread BS.

One other thing. Israel is also a full democracy that even has muslims in the kneset while Iran is ruled mostly by hard line Mullahs and antisemites. If I were a jew in Iran, I would be scared for my life. Comparing Israeli to Iran is like comparing apples to oranges. While Israel has nukes as a deterent and hopes never to use them. Iran would happily sacrafice a million of their people in the name of Allah in order to strike Israel. This is why the U.S., Israel and Europe are so worried about Iran having nukes. The U.N. is totally weak in this matter and will not take any action regarding a nuclear armed Iran. Unfortunately Israel will have to act on it's own in order to guarentee it's safety.

I'm learning alot from reading all of these comments! Wouldn't it be nice if the world were like we all envision it to be: No wars, no animosity, no bloodshed, everyone respects each other's beliefs, no matter how divergent they might be? We all cared for each other, you know, humanity, one for all? But in this day and age, that's a fantasy about as much as me marrying a woman like Rachel Hunter! Whether I support Israel or the Palestinians, the only way I can form a balanced opinion is by putting myself in the shoes of both parties. And from doing so, there just is no way that I can see Israel doing what it did any differently. When you make the decision to go to war, the first thing you'd better do is size up your opponent. Unless your judgement is vastly different from mine, I can't see calling myself a victim, or oppressed, or abused, if my slothful circumstances are in most part, of my own doing. If I challenge a bigger, stronger man to a fight and he kicks my a**, who do I have to blame? Him?

I'm in no way a defender of Israel's. But I gotta call a spade a spade. If Hamas is the legitimate governing entity in Gaza, then yes, they ARE responsible for the well being of their citizens. To me, looking at the living conditions of their people, that should take precedence over all else. They say that resistance is their right, which it is. But if this is the path they choose for themselves and their people, then they also choose the consequences the await at the end of this path, am I right? I don't know how many times it will take for their cities being destroyed, but at some point, I would think that they would stand back, take a good look at these repeated outcomes, and ask themselves,"Does resistance really further the Palestinian people? How have any of these conflicts brought any from of prosperity for us?" Hamas was elected by the people who were sick of corruption within the PA, or so I was told. But since they've been in power, they're only claim to legitimacy, it seems, has been their fight with Israel. They seem obsessed with resisting Israel, even when Israel is looking the other way. Maybe it's time for a different approach.

I don't know which is worse: Deliberately targeting civilians, or deliberately using civilians as shields against attacks that you provoked. Both are atrocious and cowardly ways to fight, and since Hamas does both, I would have to believe that they are cowards themselves. If they were men, then they would be the ones shielding their civilians, I would think. Knowing that Israel's going to target my known wherabouts, I would be doing everything in my power to stay away from innocents who might be hurt when the bombs land on me. I've never seen an Israeli celebrate when an innocent Palestinian was killed for any reason; I have, however, seen Hamas, on national t.v., celebrate by danceing on rooftops of houses when a rocket hit a house in Israel and injured a family that was sitting down to dinner. This is in the name of resistance? I'm sorry to say, but the only thing Hamas seems to be resisting is reality!

DID YOU KNOW THAT THERE ARE MORE JEWS IN IRAN THAN ANYWHERE ELSE IN THE MIDDLE EAST BESIDES ISRAEL? THEY ARE NOT PERSECUTED. THEY HAVE BEEN THERE FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS. DONT BELIEVE THE HYPE. THE BEST THING FOR THE JEWS WOULD BE FOR THEM TO STOP BELIEVING THE BS OF THE ZIONIST HAWKS.
Posted by: Did you know? at April 26, 2009 11:34 PM

Did You Know...Did you know that there is a difference between "wiped out" and "decimated" and that is exactly 10%...?

The Jewish Communities of, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, India, Pakistan, Libia, Morocco and Egypt were "disinterred", an euphemism for "wiped out" after 1948. Only the 250,000 in Iran remained untouched, because, until 1979, neither Islam nor Socialism were part of the Iranian Power structure...

In the 30 years since, the Iranian Jewish Community has been reduced by 90%...Decimated, not yet "wiped out".

A thief came into my house and stole everything I had.....I wanted to kill him! A thief came into my house and stole ONLY 90% of my possessions... and then he asked me to thank him for not leaving me bereft!

Heres some facts for did you know. According to wikipedia arabs make up almost 20 % of the population in Israel which is over a million people. These arabs are of mostly Palestinian. Of these arabs 62% want to remain Israeli citizens when a palestinian state happens. Yet did you know and a couple of others accuse Israel of being one-sided in dealing with the palestinians. Palestinians have a better life in Israel than Palestine. Why do you think this is. A number of reasons. One is they still have total religious freedom. Second, They don't have to deal with a Hamas that would make their life miserable. They are also economically much better off than their brothers in Palestine. Yet some of you brand Israel as a zionist plot to take over the middle east and leave destruction in their wake. The fact is Israel want's to live in peace just like citizens of many other countries. Jews have a very long history of civilization in what is Israel and Palestine and if you read the bible you will understand this and see that their return was prophesized. Mayby some of you should read your history books and not the one's written by Hezbollah.

Jerry:
Thanks for the response. Yes, that is one of the most commonly cited sources, and one of the best IMHO. I used the other figures only because it is, frankly, difficult to refute Palestinian claims of Israeli disingenuity when even PA sources claim the offer was 92% (and yes, probably actually higher/better).

Also, thanks for the response about Tibet. I too support Tibetan independance. However, there are many that support Tibet, but not Israel/Zionism, which is why I made clear that I had an admitted alterior motive. I've been writing an essay on this issue, but to summarize, no matter your stand on Tibet, if you acknowledge that a people have a claim to their homeland then you MUST support Zionism thru the lens of Tibet. Here's how:

1. If you support Tibet, then you support the right of original inhabitants to reclaim their homeland.

2. If you do not support Tibet, then you acknowledge that conquest is a legitimate means of acquiring land.

3. If you support Tibet, does this right ever expire? In other words, do the rights of those that the communist Chinese gov't. are moving into into the place of indigenous ever supplant the rights of the Tibets themselves?

3a- If their rights expire then you admit that the morality and ethics of conquest are timed. In other words, conquest may be wrong in the short term, but in the long-term, if the indig. rights expire, then the conquest isn't 'wrong' any longer.

3b- If you argue that their rights cannot expire, then no matter how long passes, the Tibetans will maintain their rights to their homeland.

So how does this apply to Israel and the Jews? Well, simply actually.

If #1, then you must support Zionism. Despite Palestinian claims, Jews predate the current Arab population. And in contrast to the current mantra, Jews were either the majority or plurality in the Holy Land until only nine centuries ago, when the Crusaders killed much of the Jewish community. It was the Crusaders and subsequent Muslim rulers who prohibited Jews from resettling their homeland and, instead, settled Palestine with 'friendly' peoples (in the exact same fashion that Tibet is being settled today).

However, if #2, then Jews have the right to conquest, or the reconquest of their homeland, just as those had their so-called right to take it away. I'm no believer in 'might-makes-right,' but there is a difference between illogical and wrong.

Finally, there is group #3. Well, 3b is simple. If the rights of Jews have never expired, then modern Arabs of Palestine/Israel are in the same position that Tibetan-Chinese will be in one day when Tibet regains its independance. They will have been there for generations and yet they will not belong there. Leftists would argue that Tibetan rights must come first; why do you think they don't make that argument for Jews?

Then there is #3a. This one is problematic, because if you accept this one, you actually believe that ethics and morality are on a timer. But if you truly believe that, then that means that Palestinian rights are expiring as every years ticks by....

There are some issues that I've not had the space to address here, but suffice it to say that, after much consideration, arguing against the legitimacy of Israel becomes more and more difficult without performing some mental gymnastics.... or resorting to outright anti-semitism.

AEWHistory:
You make excellent points, and I agree with you. I am a liberal and I believe that the Tibetans have a right to their homeland (independence or autonomy), just like the Jews do. I also donate to American Indian causes because I recognize that I am living on their land, even if they haven't lived in my area for hundreds of years. When I went to Australia, I made a point of speaking with (and buying from) Aborigines and hearing what they had to say, and when I went to Hawaii, I spoke to (and bought from) native Hawaiians (although none of them was pure Hawaiian, due to intermarriage).
The Jews are the native people in Israel, and were forcibly kicked out. Nevertheless, Jewish prayers are full of references of wanting to return to Israel and that the land would be well kept. Every census in Jerusalem's history has shown a Jewish majority or plurality.
If all of the countries that keep harping on the "Plight of the Palestinians" really cared, they would open their borders to these people that they claim are suffering. The fact that they don't shows that they just want to delegitimize Israel.

http://lightonthings.blogspot.com/2010/01/palestinian-right-of-return-to-their.html Palestinian right of return... to their homeland - ARABIA, WILL MASSIVE ARABIA OFFER TO THE ARAB PALESTINIANS SOME LAND IN THEIR 'ORIGINAL HOMELAND?'