Soccer Dad

abbas is the leader of no one with no creditbility with the people. only because of israel and the US is he still president,in name only, of the palestinian people. hamas is the true elected government of the people with popular support which has shown it will not sell out the palestinian cause agaist israeli occupation. fatah mean while is locking palestinians up and violently trying to oust hamas. abbas is finished.
gilad shalit is a prisoner of war and not a kidnapped victim.where as the thousands of palestinians held in israeli jails to be release months/years later with no charges are victims of kidnapp.
hamas has stated many time if israel withdraw to the pre 1967 boarder it will recognise the jewish state in time.but you conveniently leave this out.
the surge only worked because iran brokered a peace deal with the mardi army and the iraqi government. . the reversal of US policy help greatly with robert gates running the show and not rummsfeild.

hamas is the true elected government of the people with popular support which has shown it will not sell out the palestinian cause agaist israeli occupation.

Are you referring to the Hamas, 'the true elected government' that pulled a coup? Well, at least you did not say they were democratic!

Are you honestly saying that Hamas has popular support after cowering in the basement of a hospital while leaving their people without bomb shelters? Do you actually have a poll that backs that up, or are you just saying that?

fatah mean while is locking palestinians up and violently trying to oust hamas.

Again, in view of what Hamas is doing to their own people as well as to Fatah--this complaint is laughable, as if there were a real difference between Fatah and Hamas.

gilad shalit is a prisoner of war and not a kidnapped victim.where as the thousands of palestinians held in israeli jails to be release months/years later with no charges are victims of kidnapp.

Are you saying that according to the Geneva Conventions and International War, any time you take a soldier not during battle he becomes a
prisoner of war? How convenient!

Please back up your claim that Palestinians are being held en masse without reason or charges.

hamas has stated many time if israel withdraw to the pre 1967 boarder it will recognise the jewish state in time.

Not in December 2007. Many times? Show me.

All I have to say is thank God that useful idiot John Kerry never became president.

"fatah mean while is locking palestinians up and violently trying to oust hamas".
...........................................
Didn't hamas violently outst fatah in the first place? Not that I support fatah mind you, they are terrorists just the same as hamas.

here are two credible links which explain it all.

http://thereport.amnesty.org/eng/regions/middle-east-and-north-africa/israel-and-the-occupied-palestinian-territories http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_civil_skirmishes
do not know where you get your info from.

Your problem is that you confuse nobility of purpose with truth and credibility. The fact that the UN Charter is a noble declaration has not stopped it from being tied down to the agendas of the blocs led by less than noble 3rd world and Middle Eastern counties.

The same goes for organizations such as Amnesty International. In its critique of AI's 2007 report, CAMERA noted among other things that AI does not give their sources nor do they distinguish between combatants and non-combatants. A look at the page you reference reveals that AI does not learn from its mistakes.

You are of course free to rely on whatever source you like to base your beliefs upon--but I am not impressed.

And as far as Hamas being willing to recognize Israel--Hamas says otherwise.

CAMERA,is a pro ziomist organisation with no credibility. i wouldn't give credence to anything they say. amesty is a credible organisation with links to no one.
israel has defied the UN more than any other country. the US uses its power of veto mainly for israel. israel and USA have made a mockery of the UN.
usally the vote in the UN is israel and america on one side and the rest of the world on the other.the US has used its power of veto to stop sanction being imposed on israel.

you don't hear what hamas says cause you have tunnel vision with anything concerning israel.

So this is what your argument has degraded into?
CAMERA documents what it says--THAT is why it is credible.

Amnesty International does not--plus it does not differentiate between combatants and non-combatants AND does not even deign to mention that Israel takes those actions because of terrorist attacks. THAT is why AI is not objective and not credible

According to you, Israel has defied the UN more than Iran and Saddam's Iraq?

Actually, the US--when using the veto--has clearly said that it has done so because there is no mention of the terrorist attacks that cause Israel to do what it does. The UN is guilty of the same lack of objectivity as AI.

Some much for your 2 favorite sources.

I posted a link to an article where Hamas clearly said it will not recognize Israel.
The Hamas Charter says its goal is to destroy Israel.
Hamas fires rockets on civilians.
The Grad rockets they fire, which have greater accuracy are being fired at schools.

And you say the I am the one with tunnel vision?
One of us hears very clearly the message that Hamas is sending.

And it clearly is not you.

hamas has stated many times that if israel withdraws from all ccupied land it will recognise israel in time. israel wants recognition before any withdraw and agreement.according to international law the acquistion of land by war does not give the conquering power the right to title or sovereigty over,the conquered territory.ie. all occupied land beyond the 1947 partition plan is illegal. acquistion of land by war can only be legally legitimized only if the conquered parties with claim to the land recognize the occupying power.so the palestinians would be waivering their claim to their land the moment they recognize israel.that is why hamas will not reconize israel until israel recognizes the right for palestinian self determination. the palestinians have sometimes behaved in a very foolish way,but aren't silly enough to fall into that trap and commit suicide.thou arafrat nearly did .that is the reason why hamas will not recognize israel and not because it wants it destroyed.
israel has defied the UN over 700 times . no other country comes close to that ,including saddams iraq.
your argument that AI and the UN lacks objectivity isn't very strong. both have condemned the terrorist acts of the palestinian rististence groups. but they are not going to help justify israels illegal actions. so i suppose b'tselem ,human right watch and most NGOs have the same lack of objectivity- but CAMERA[a zionist sponsered group] doesn't.
i think palestinian terror is bad, but i also take into account not just the acts themselves but their underlying causes. but in any case, it is not for isreal or its supporters, to wax indignant about a form of warfare which israel itself had pioneered.after the creation of the state of israel,classical terrorism gave way to the outwardly more respectable terrorism,designed to cow and subjugate the arabs,which the state with all its resources, can mount.palestinian violence, by contrast,is reactive,small scale but more easily branded as barbaric. i have misgiving about this kind of terrorism but i also condemn that of an israel which was built on terrorism and continues to glorify its terrorist to this day.look at the former terrorist leader who enjoy respected places in public life.look at marcelle ninio.

hamas has stated many times that if israel withdraws from all ccupied land it will recognise israel in time. israel wants recognition before any withdraw and agreement.according to international law the acquistion of land by war does not give the conquering power the right to title or sovereigty over,the conquered territory.ie. all occupied land beyond the 1947 partition plan is illegal. acquistion of land by war can only be legally legitimized only if the conquered parties with claim to the land recognize the occupying power.so the palestinians would be waivering their claim to their land the moment they recognize israel

That of course where you get into trouble--the Palestinian Arabs of course cannot waive their right to the land because the land in question has never been Palestinian Arab land

It has been under the control of Israel, before that by Egypt and Jordan, before that by Great Britain and before that by the Ottomans--but NEVER has there been a sovereign Palestinian state!

that is why hamas will not reconize israel until israel recognizes the right for palestinian self determination. the palestinians have sometimes behaved in a very foolish way,but aren't silly enough to fall into that trap and commit suicide.thou arafrat nearly did .that is the reason why hamas will not recognize israel and not because it wants it destroyed.

Have you actually read the Hamas Charter? Of course they want to destroy Israel--or don't you believe what they themselves say?

israel has defied the UN over 700 times . no other country comes close to that ,including saddams iraq.

Define what you mean by defying.

your argument that AI and the UN lacks objectivity isn't very strong. both have condemned the terrorist acts of the palestinian rististence groups.

CAMERA backs up what they say with references; AI does not and UN condemnations are one-sided, without referencing what Israel is responding to.

It's that simple.

but they are not going to help justify israels illegal actions.

And which International laws is Israel supposed to have broken?

so i suppose b'tselem ,human right watch and most NGOs have the same lack of objectivity

Again, you assume that nobility of purpose automatically assures truth. There are people who will twist the facts to fit their noble purpose and justify their distortions for exactly that reason.

On B'tselem see here. On HRW see here.

- but CAMERA[a zionist sponsered group] doesn't.

Zionist sponsored? What exactly does that mean?

i think palestinian terror is bad, but i also take into account not just the acts themselves but their underlying causes.

All well and good--but Israel does not act in a vacuum either.

but in any case, it is not for isreal or its supporters, to wax indignant about a form of warfare which israel itself had pioneered.

Pioneered? Israel has followed a policy of avoiding hitting civilians to the degree possible after suffering thousands of rockets being fired at it for years. Hamas on the other hand purposely fires at civilians.

Is Hamas following Israel's example???

after the creation of the state of israel,classical terrorism gave way to the outwardly more respectable terrorism,designed to cow and subjugate the arabs,which the state with all its resources, can mount.

Very vague--can you specify and give a source?

palestinian violence, by contrast,is reactive,small scale but more easily branded as barbaric.

Reactive? Have you ever read what the Koran says about Jews?

i have misgiving about this kind of terrorism but i also condemn that of an israel which was built on terrorism and continues to glorify its terrorist to this day.look at the former terrorist leader who enjoy respected places in public life.look at marcelle ninio.

From what I have read of the Lavon Affair, the heads of the government were not involved in what Ninio did--and you want to compare this to Hamas that actively raises its children to be terrorists, without regard to the psychological scarring to Gazans as a whole?

you really are in denial.
if it isn't palestinian land who's land is it. remember the jews conquer the holy lands from the descendants of the palestinians who's were in pocession over 2000 year before the arrival of the anicent hebrews.implicit in jewish mythology and zionist propoganda ,that the palestinians first came to palestine in the seventh century, at the time when arabs were being converted to islam is simply not true.the first israelite occupation of palestine was only an episode in the history of an arab country which has been occupied at one time or another by most of the major powers of world history. so if the jews claim is valid then all the other nation who conquered palestine or the land called cannan have a valid claim including the romans, greeks, babylonians,assyrians,turks and even the british. palestine is not the original home of the jews,it was acquired by conquest.
my statement is the last comment are simple and to the point. no need to use that old lawyer trick.
the israeli goverment was involved the the 'lavon affair'except lavon himself as it was in driving the iraqi jew to israel through bombs and intimidation.
the koran says that people of 'the book' including jews and christians are to be respected. it was the arabs who let the jews back to palestine to live in peace after they knicked out the crusaders.

you really are in denial.
if it isn't palestinian land who's land is it.

If there has ever been a sovereign Palestinian Arab state, please feel free to tell me who the leader was and when.

remember the jews conquer the holy lands from the descendants of the palestinians who's were in pocession over 2000 year before the arrival of the anicent hebrews.

I've heard claims that the ancestors of the Palestinians were the Canaanites and I have also heard that the Palestinians are the descendants of the Plishtim. Which myth are you holding by?

implicit in jewish mythology and zionist propoganda ,that the palestinians first came to palestine in the seventh century, at the time when arabs were being converted to islam is simply not true.

Saying the same thing over and over is not a proof--you claim that Palestinians are an ancient people. Fine, where is your proof. As I said before, there are Palestinians who have claimed alternatively that they are descended from Canaanites and Plishtim: if you are going to take this route please let me know which of these 2 myths you ascribe too--unless of course you have found a third one.

the first israelite occupation of palestine was only an episode in the history of an arab country which has been occupied at one time or another by most of the major powers of world history.

Only an episode? A mighty long episode. Which major powers are you referring to? And which of them actually had a sovereign state on the land?

so if the jews claim is valid then all the other nation who conquered palestine or the land called cannan have a valid claim including the romans, greeks, babylonians,assyrians,turks and even the british. palestine is not the original home of the jews,it was acquired by conquest.

But again--none of the countries you mention ever created a sovereign state there.

my statement is the last comment are simple and to the point.

It is also your least impressive one.

the israeli goverment was involved the the 'lavon affair'except lavon himself as it was in driving the iraqi jew to israel through bombs and intimidation.

prove it.

the koran says that people of 'the book' including jews and christians are to be respected.

The Koran calls Jews dogs and apes--and it is in following the Koran that non-Muslims are dhimmis and treated as second class citizens at best.

it was the arabs who let the jews back to palestine to live in peace after they knicked out the crusaders.

More stories--there has always been a remnant of Jews in the land. As far as the nonsense about Muslims letting Jews back in, don't forget about the Muslim oppression, persecution and murder of Jews--see here.

your Distortions of the text stating or implying that God has condemned the Jews and Christians are scattered throughout the Wahhabi Koran. Notably, they invert the meaning of the several verses that express respect for the "People of the Book," the Jews and Christians. Thus, verse 2:62 in its authentic form states: Believers, Jews, Christians, and Sabaeans--whoever believes in God and the Last Day and does what is
right--shall be rewarded by their Lord. (The Sabaeans were followers of an ancient religion impossible to identify clearly today.) In the Saudi English translation, this passage is footnoted to declare, No other religion except Islam will be accepted from anyone, although no such statement appears in the Arabic.

your Distortions of the text stating or implying that God has condemned the Jews and Christians are scattered throughout the Wahhabi Koran.

So you are going to blame me for the Wahhabi distortions?

Notably, they invert the meaning of the several verses that express respect for the "People of the Book," the Jews and Christians. Thus, verse 2:62 in its authentic form states: Believers, Jews, Christians, and Sabaeans--whoever believes in God and the Last Day and does what is
right--shall be rewarded by their Lord. (The Sabaeans were followers of an ancient religion impossible to identify clearly today.) In the Saudi English translation, this passage is footnoted to declare, No other religion except Islam will be accepted from anyone, although no such statement appears in the Arabic.

Actually, that footnote is corroborated by Sura 3:85
"If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to God), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good)."

This clearly indicates how lowly the Koran and Islam thinks of Jews and Christians. If indeed you were right, Jews and Christians would not be treated as second class citizens.

The dhimmi laws inherent in Islam prove you are incorrect.

look i'm get nowhere with you. you have obviously been sucked right in and believe all the propoganda, which is rife on the internet.
so i'll agree to disagree but really you should look at all the facts and not the spin .

You have rehashed all of the popular talking points, while providing precious few links to back yourself up.

I will admit, however, that you did do a great service by collecting the various distorted, undocumented talking points around the Internet and helpfully pooling them together into one thread.

Thanks!

my pleasure.
but really its you who are unconscious to the truth.
my statements are factual and not zionist propoganda from organisations such as CAMERA.
your argument reminds me of a book by joan peters 'From Time Immeremorial:the origin of the arab- jewish conflict over palestine' which was a best seller and the zionist propaganda machines biggest achievment. the first US reviews stated it was a masterpiece which will revolutionise peoples thinking of the israel/palestinian conflict. but once the book hit europe and israel it was deemed a total hoax, but its still a best seller in the US esp. jewish communities.
please research i'm sure you'll find many facts for your argument.

Again--you are wrong.

The book's only issue was it's examination of the statistics regarding Palestinian immigration into the area.

Even Norman Finkelstein focused only on that point and did not dispute the rest, which included the anti-Semitism in the Koran and the history of Muslim persecution of Jews in Palestine for many centuries.

You claim CAMERA is propaganda--yet unlike your 'proofs' CAMERA actually backs up what it says with sources. Amnesty International does not-- which is why AI's claims, and yours, ring hollow: full of fury, but nothing to back them up.

Instead, you are forced to claim that both CAMERA and Joan Peter's book are Zionist propaganda.

You have fallen victim to the exact same fault I have seen you ascribe to others: attacking people instead of the arguments.

CAMERA has gained notoriety for its tactic of accusing virtually anyone who does not toe a right-wing pro-Israel line of bias. The group has even accused editors and reporters of the Israeli daily Haaretz of being "extreme" and participating in "radical anti-Israel activity." Jeffrey Dvorkin, the former ombudsman of National Public Radio (NPR), frequently criticized by CAMERA for an alleged pro-Palestinian bias, wrote on the web publication Salon in February 2008 that "as a consequence of its campaign against NPR, CAMERA acted as the enabler for some seriously disturbed people," citing persistent telephone threats he received in the wake of CAMERA campaigns
also CAMERA has been exposed when a series of emails published detailing their campaign to rewrite history by infutrating wikipedia http://www.scribd.com/doc/5213600/080421camerawikipedia
CAMERA HAS NO CREDITBILITY, NONE

You start off with a wild accusation, once again ignoring the fact that unlike the source you refer to, CAMERA actually documents its sources.

The fact is that Haaretz is a left wing newspaper--the fact that it is Israeli merely makes it a favorite source for people who want to criticize Israel. Just to illustrate:

Jun-07-01
Court Recognizes Ha'aretz Slander Of Hevron Jews
(IsraelNationalNews.com) The Hevron Jewish Community sued Ha'aretz newspaper - and won! Ha'aretz staffer Amira Hass, a Jewish resident of Ramallah, wrote several months ago that the residents of Beit Hadassah in Hevron abused the corpse of a terrorist. She wrote that the residents kicked, spat on, and danced atop the body of a dead Arab terrorist, who had just been shot and killed by soldiers shortly after he threw a grenade at them. The plaintiffs cited an announcement by the IDF spokesman at the time asserting that the Jewish residents did not abuse the body in any manner. The Hevron residents demanded an apology, which Ha'aretz did not provide. They then sued the paper for 250,000 shekels, and Ha'aretz did not even submit a defense. Yesterday, Hon. Shalev Gertel awarded the full sum to the Hevron community, in addition to 20,000 shekels for legal expenses.

NPR? What did you expect them to say about CAMERA--or HonestReporting for that matter. So according to you any group that defends Israel and quotes its sources is Zionist-supported or worse? How convenient.

As far as the Wikipedia incident, they made a stupid mistake, planning on using the same methods that others have used to make changes to the articles.

Everything they produce is documented, unlike alot to the anti-Israel 'material' that appears on the web.

Daled Amos

it was no mistake, it was a deliberate act that tells you about the real motives of CAMERA.
i see now that it is western PURBLINDNESS that has been the indispensable environment for the continuation of the zionist venture into 'greater isreal' which you are apart of.