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February 17, 2009
Experience not politics
I think that Bradley Burston - though he puts it a lot differently than I would - is making the same point I have. Or as his interviewee says (via memeorandum):
"In other words," Alkalai concludes, "the majority vote was cast for a leadership - the right wing - that the public thinks can end the relationship with the most assets for Israelis and preferably no alimony at all for the spouse."
Or as David Bernstein puts it:
The Israeli Left has lost the confidence of Israelis by persuading them to put their faith in a "peace process" premised on the assumption that the dispute with the Palestinians was primarily about land, and that if Israel was willing to withdraw from land appropriated in 1967, peace would ensue. That turned out to be overly simplistic, and perhaps very naive. I recall reading several left-wing Ha'aretz columnists who claimed during the Second Intifada that the underlying problem was that the Palestinians didn't believe Israel would ever withdraw from any of the "occupied territories." Israel subsequently did withdraw, from Gaza and part of Samaria, but this led to the election of Hamas in Gaza, not to the triumph of Palestinian doves. The left still clings to its paradigm, however. The Israeli right, meanwhile, has quickly shifted to what it is at least able to portray as a "realist" approach to the Palestinians. As is usual in politics, the side that has been better able to react to events on the ground, rather than sticking to ideological presuppositions, has won--which doesn't, of course, make it right.
Barry Rubin puts it like this:
Most Israelis believe that the Palestinians don't want to make a comprehensive peace with Israel in exchange for a Palestinian state. Hamas doesn't want it; the Palestinian Authority (PA) is both unwilling and unable to do it. Israel faces a hostile Iran, Syria, Hamas, and Hizballah, and various Islamist movements which all want to destroy it. In addition, it cannot depend on strong Western or international support in defending itself.Therefore, it is not a moment for Israel to make big concessions or take big risks. Peace is not at hand. The priority--even while continuing negotiations and trying to help the PA to survive--is defense.
That's what the people who voted for Labor or Likud or Lieberman, Kadima or Shas or National Union or Jewish Home or United Torah Judaism believed. More than 85 percent of Israelis voted for parties that hold that basic conception, while that concept itself is the product of a very serious assessment of very real experience. And that--whatever differences they have--is beyond any definition of "left" or "right."
Israel has moved to the Left over the past 20 years. When commentators refer to right wing and left wing, they are describing much changed positions over that time. But as Prof Rubin concludes, there has been no reciprocal movement on the other side:
There is a Palestinian partner for the above four issues, but not for a comprehensive solution ending the conflict forever in exchange for a Palestinian state living in peace alongside Israel. As we learned in the 1990s with the peace process and more recently with disengagement, Israel's actions--no matter how conciliatory and concessionary--cannot make peace when the other side is unwilling and unable to do so. It's time for the rest of the world to learn this fact.
Crossposted on Yourish.
Posted by SoccerDad at February 17, 2009 6:13 AM
Why Does The Goldstone Commission Report Rely On Contradicting Testimony?
On a foundation of sand
Kemp vs. goldstone
The Goldstone Commission: A Funny Thing Happened On The Way To Gaza
Garlasco hits the fan
Israel deploys WorldNetDaily against Iran!
Have you forgotten?
Slapping the outstretched hand
Turki stuffing
Fadlallah clarifies that Israel's existence is the issue
"It's time for the rest of the world to learn this fact".
...............................................
Yes but then again I'm not so sure that most of the rest of the world are unaware of it as much as they are either indifferent to Israel's predicament or wouldn't mind if Israel did disappear from the map. They really believe that sacrificing Israel would make themselves safer.
You keep repeating yourself that Hamas will never recognize Israel and wants to wipe it from the map. Hamas never but NEVER said that. I heard them myself. If they recognize Israel now, it's over for Palestinians, which means recognizing Israel with its actual borders. They said that they will recognize Israel's right to exist if Israel return the STOLEN land. Just today, Ehud Olmert said that he wants to expand a settlement in the West Bank by 2,700 houses. Are you Jews negotiating peace in good faith? United Nations has all the papers anyway. All the settlement, no matter where they are all ILLEGAL. It is under the protection of the Zionists in the U.S. that you continue to confiscate land and then if we criticize, you call us anti-semite. Jews, you are smart people, please behave accordingly.
Posted by: claudia at February 17, 2009 6:28 PM"Hamas never but NEVER said that. I heard them myself."
.............................................
ROTFL, claudia you are a pathetic joke. I don't know whether you are just plain stupid or mendacious.
The terrorist hamas has in its charter the destruction of all Jewish political, cultural and economic existence in "palestine".
The August 1988 Charter declared that all Palestine is Islamic trust land, can never be surrendered to non-Muslims and is an integral part of Muslim world. It cites the forged Protocols of the Elders of Zion as legitimate documents, declares that negotiations and international conferences are a waste of time, and blames 'Zionists' for the French and Russian revolutions.
I don't know why I even bother since trying to reason with people like you is a complete waste of time.
Posted by: Laura at February 17, 2009 7:35 PM"Jihad" Claudia,
Read the Hamas charter. All you have to do is Google it...
"The principles of the Hamas are stated in their Covenant or Charter, given in full below. Following are highlights.
"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).
"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "
"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."
"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Muslim)."
"Jihad" Claudia,
I was just wondering,
When arab suicide terrorist blow themselfs up ia an Israeli mall or school bus,they belive they will get 72 virgins upon arrival in Heaven.
What will suicide arab female get?
Three guys
Three guys, a Canadian, Osama Bin Laden and Uncle Sam are out walking together one day. They come across a lantern and a Genie pops out of it.
"I will give each of you each one wish, that's three wishes total," says the Genie.
The Canadian says, "I am a farmer, my dad was a farmer, and my son will also farm. I want the land to be forever fertile in Canada." With a blink of the Genie's eye, 'POOF' the land in Canada was forever made fertile for farming.
Osama Bin Laden was amazed, so he said, "I want a wall around Afghanistan, so that no infidels, Jews or Americans can come into our precious state." Again, with a blink of the Genie's eye, 'POOF' there was a huge wall around Afghanistan.
"Uncle Sam" (A former civil engineer), asks, "I'm very curious. Please tell me more about this wall." The Genie explains, "Well, it's about 15,000 feet high, 500 feet thick and completely surrounds the country; nothing can get in or out---virtually impenetrable."
"Uncle Sam" says, "Fill it with water."